Kingdoms: Crusades - KoJ Tactics Advice Sought

[Incomitatus]

Hello everyone.

I'm not in the habit of asking for tactical help, but I cannot seem to get a handle on a situation. So... help, please?

The situation:

It's early days of the KoJ campaign (H/H), I haven't got any fortresses yet, so I'm limited to Knights of Jerusalem for my heavy cavalry (other than the starting Templars and Unique Constable of Jerusalem), and I have no access to Templar Crossbowmen yet (other than the starting two units).

I defend fine in the field and in castles/cities. I assault castles/cities fine. I'm having problems with attacking in the field. I'm fighting the Egyptians, and I cannot seem to keep my knights alive.

When I'm defending, I use the same basic approach that King Richard used - that is, keep the knights in reserve behind defensive infantry and let the enemy wear themselves out before sweeping them from the field - and all is well.

The same approach never seems to work when attacking, however. IF the enemy chooses to advance on my army, I just fight like it's a defensive battle... but when they just sit there, as they often do, I usually end up with my cavalry being slaughtered.

The Strategic Problem:

I'm winning all of my battles, but they keep ending up Pyrrhic victories... I lose so many men, and expensive men at that, that I'm constantly short on manpower and not able to advance - it's draining my treasury and costing me much more than it's costing the AI. I can't afford to fight battles that are estimated at 3-1 in my favour, and keep losing 80% of my cavalry (which make up half the units in my army). I'm going broke!

If I avoid attacking in the field at all, Ascalon and Alia end up under constant siege and get dangerously worn down by 3-4 full stacks, and AI reinforcements get funnelled out of Egypt faster than they lose men in assaults... and I fear being overwhelmed.

The Tactical Problem:

The Egyptians seem to like to deploy across the entire width of the map, with a mix of light and heavy missile cavalry on both wings and a strong infantry and melee cavalry center.

1. If I concentrate in the center for the assault, I get flanked and suffer extreme casualties.

2. If I deploy Templar Sergeants to the wings to counter the cavalry there, they get shot to pieces.

3. If I deploy Knights of Jerusalem to the wings, they get a. shot up and b. caught between the Mamluk Archers and Desert Cavalry on the wings, and light Arab Cavalry that runs over from the enemy center, and slaughtered.

4. If I deploy Mounted Sergeants to the wings, they lose in melee with the Mamluk Archers.

5. If I deploy Turkopoles to the wings, they lose in missile duels with the Mamluk Archers.

6. If I deploy foot archers to the wings, I end up having to send so many units of Templar Sergeants and various cavalry to protect them that I don't have any men left to assault the center!

Tactics 1, 2, and 6 result in my either losing, or such a close run thing that it's very much not worth it. Tactics 3, 4, and 5 give me the victory, but cost most of my cavalry... which I can't afford.

My army composition is usually 7-8 units of heavy cavalry (Including the general), 2-3 units of light cavalry (usually Turkopoles when fighting Egypt, as Mounted Sergeants a. get shot up too easily and b. can't fight any of the Egyptian missile cavalry hand to hand and win, while Turkopoles can run down routers just as well and can at least shoot back), 5-6 units of Templar Sergeants, 4-5 units of the best archers/crossbowmen I can throw together.

This is not the first time I've played KoJ on Crusades, and I don't remember this problem from previous campaigns. Either the AI is playing smarter or I'm playing dumber, and I doubt the AI got better soooo...

To sum up: Defending, I'm fine. City and castle fighting, offense or defense, I'm fine. It's attacking Egyptian armies in the field that is beggering me. I'm winning the battles, but losing the war to attrition. Where am I going wrong? Is it in my tactics or in my strategy? What advice does the community have?

Thanks!

[Incomitatus]

Addendum: The AI loves to put it's melee cavalry in Wedge formation before charging into my cavalry. Even though I usually win these encounters, I find the AI's men die excruciatingly slowly when in that formation, even if surrounded.

And yet... if I put my men in wedge and try the same thing... they drop like flies.

Could someone explain a. what is going on? And b. how to counter the AI Wedge-o-Death?

[Stolet]

a. The AI probably gets bonuses because you're the human player
b. Try to charge them when they're engaged, as soon as possible, from all sides if possible

As for the battles, maybe it's a good idea to get some bridge battles. This way you can deploy a smaller army (with less cavalry - less money spent). There are some bridges near Jerusalem, you can sit your army there. When the AI sees an army that is smaller and it knows it has like 3:2, 5:3, 2:1 advantage, it WILL attack. So, you have heavy infantry, they have weaker infantry. You have heavy cavalry, they mostly have light cavalry. A defensive bridge battle is ideal for you. The AI is often stupid enough to send it's missile cavalry to the other side of the bridge first, so you'll get rid of them really fast. Their spear militias and saracens are no match for your heavy infantry. You don't need much mounted missile units this way (you'll save money), those crossbowmen you get will be enough for the enemy morale to drop quicker. Also, keep a general in the army so your troops don't rout. When you see multiple enemy units "shaken", get that heavy cavalry into melee and cause those shaken guys to waver and rout.

[VersionLangley]

personally i thought you should be glad that the ai seems smarter. since it make your campaign interested ...that aside

for your addendum...seem like you got a charging mechanics problem. Unlike RTW where surrounded cav died quickly, horse in MTW2 take longer to engage each other when in melee. So it take longer for their cav to died. make sure the flanking cav is charging and cycle charging.

For your main post,seems like you got problem with horse archers.

Retry #1 but change a bit:
-line up your 7-8 heavy cav vanguard,
-all melee infantry as second vanguard swordsmen in front
-archers as center behind 2nd vanguard and
-light cav 4th as reserve behind the archers
Have your entire formation march toward the center

-send in your vanguard for a general charge (each heavy cav charge the unit directly in front of them) even if the enemies front are spears--note: do not charge the foot archers but click on the melee infantry
-recall the vanguard out immediately after the charge and send in the 2nd vanguard
-go around with all cav unit (the heavy cav and light cav) and flank or hammer the enemy center
-if their cav try to hold you down..use one cav only to hold each of their cav and continue the other for flanking the center
-leave the arch unprotected during the assault and shoot their horse archers

Objective is to finish the center quick enough that you can redivert your heavy cav and infantry back to protect your arch. Use your horse archers as a charging melee...but charge only at the back and charge only infantry

gl.....recreate a campaign battle with custome battle and post a replay. that will help us spot the problem more easy

[Incomitatus]

Okay...

Stolet - Unfortunately, Egypt has D. Ghulams, while, as yet, I only have access to Squires of Tripoli and Frankish Axemen for heavy infantry. So, they currently outclass me in terms of heavy infantry, although I'll have D. Knights of Jerusalem soon. Still, I don't like putting sword or axe infantry in field armies against Egypt, since they can't resist a cavalry charge, unlike Templar Sergeants. Even in a bridge battle, spearmen are my preferred melee infantry, since they tend to have high defense stats and last longer on the bridge.

Another point, the only bridge near Jerusalem in the Crusades Campaign is north-east of the city. The AI won't even move armies into Jerusalem's province until Ascalon has either fallen or is besieged. Just to make clear, this is the Crusades campaign we're talking about. I want to push west and seize the two bridges over the Nile... then I'd be just fine, but I can't make any headway against the never-relenting horde streaming across the Sinai.

VersionLangley - see my reply to Stolet about the heavy infantry availability for me. The rest of your idea would work, except:

1. If I leave my archers unguarded, they WILL be run down by the enemy cavalry - Either Mamluk Archers or Arab Cavalry are both faster than my Knights, and the AI is quite willing to charge with Mamluk's despite their being missile cavalry.

2. Even though half the units in my armies are cavalry, the Egyptian armies almost always have MORE units of cavalry... meaning I can't match my cavalry up with theirs 1-to-1, and I can't afford to field a 2/3 cavalry army that could match them horse for horse.

3. The best archers I have access to are Marionites of Lebanon, 7 attack composite non-AP bow - and at the moment, I can only access them from one castle (working on that). Most of my archers are Soldeer Archers, no armour, no shield, 5 attack self-bow, non-AP. The enemy missile cav, on the other hand, is always at least half composed of Mamluk Archers who are well armoured and shielded enough that they just shrug off most of my volleys, and meanwhile have a nasty ranged attack of their own and good melee stats... and the AI, as mentioned above, doesn't mind using them in melee. When I'm defending, on a hilltop, my archers do okay... but attacking, especially if I have to attack uphill, I may as well just leave them at home, it seems. Basically, when it comes to missile duels, I am outclassed, and will remain outclassed until I can train Templar Crossbowmen, but I need a fortress and an Archery Range first, so that's a ways off still.

4. If the entire Egyptian army doesn't rout, there is no 'finishing off the center and redirecting'... their units seem to have an ungodly ability to reform and rejoin the fray. I'm sure this is meant to simulate the tendency of Arab and Turkish armies to feign retreats and attack in waves, but it's bloody annoying, because it means any attempt to break my formation in the belief that some part of the battle is now 'secure' results in my being unpleasantly surprised by a flank charge of Ghazis or D. Ghulams that I thought long gone. Basically, I can't assume an enemy is out of the fight until they cross the red boundary or their all dead/captured, and if I use my cavalry to ensure that... well... they get flanked and slaughtered.

The same happens if I try repetitive charges against engaged enemy cavalry... the AI ALWAYS disengages their cavalry and charges into the rear of my disengaging cavalry, killing many of them. I cannot disengage cavalry from cavalry, without suffering mightily for it. My knights are just too slow, and cannot run away from pursuing Mamluks or Arab Cavalry.

IF I can deliver a proper charge into engaged Arab Cavalry, I can wipe out the unit. But the Knights of Jerusalem have such low attack and charge values (relative to 'normal' knights) and Mamluks and Ghulams are well protected enough, that they have almost no effect when delivering a charge, even into a flank or rear. It doesn't help that the entire region is a desert and most battlefields are on broken ground - penalizing my knights and making a perfect charge impossible.

I am really beginning to think there isn't a tactical solution until either they start fielding weaker units or I start fielding stronger ones... so I'm looking for a strategic solution:

1. Since I can build permanent stone forts, and the AI will usually siege forts in a region before besieging the main settlement, I am going to put a couple of forts down with strong infantry garrisons. Then keep a mobile cavalry army to relieve sieges. If I sally, with the cavalry army ready to support, I'll have the enemy caught with my cavalry already behind their line... which should change things considerably. It would definitely make your idea of smashing the center first much easier to do, since I can hit them from both sides simultaneously and wipe out most of their units near instantly. My most vulnerable units can then run back into the fort, so I don't have to guard them.

2. It's navy time. I need to cut Egypt's income, so blockades are the order of the day. I've already swept the seas of their ships, a few more boats and I'll be able to cut their ports.

3. Then, I can start landing raiding parties behind the lines, directly into Egypt and I can either seize undefended settlements, or I can at least take out some of their armies before they concentrate into full stacks.

[Siegfriedfr]

Just finished it after much trial and error.

Strategy:
Blocking all their ports is crucial, it does slow down the armies output.
Taking their only castle should be your top priority to breath in your homeland. It will split their attention.
To counter the mongols I send an army of assassins, as I couldn't finish Egypt early enough.
The ai goes around heavily defended forts in the Sinai or doesnt attack them. And by the time you can block the Nile with forts they will be useless as the war is soon over. Avoid them.

I ended up fielding two heavy cavalry armies in the Sinai and shipped a siege army and a decoy army full of militia and archers (produced in the ballbark area), directly their only castle. You must keep them glued together to avoid 2vs1 battles in their favor or you loose too much men.

tactic:
My tactic was brutal: use the full cavalry armies to charge the infantry and the general in an hammer and anvil style at the start to rout them then finish what's left. Nothing resists a knights charge !
You take casualties so you need a steady stream of cavalry pumping out of the 2 castles near Jerusalem

[VersionLangley]

hehe....i'm starting to want to go back to Crusade campaign because of your post
what i don't get is i win VH/VH with army less than or equal to 6 cav vs Egpyts all the time.... so i really don't know what went wrong unless you post a replay
what you post iconium got me stump but all theoretical...sound like a person control the AI rather than the AI...however, i sincerely hope you would recreate a battle in custome and post a replay here...that way we can spot more specific error or tactical move to help you

if a person controlling the egpytian with that army composition then the Egyptian almost win all the time....but i remember AI are not that smart

you might restore my faith in the AI again

Post a replay and post a specific army compostion as well..... including upgrades and exp as well as mercenaries....cause i can mod to use the mercs in custome
then i'll fight the match and hopefully.... post a successful replay

Please don't go the strategic rout....since it ruins the OP for me

[Incomitatus]

Version Langley - uploading a replay is not something I'm going to do... dial-up connection, and no hosting space = too much work.

BUT - I'll give you army composition and you can set it up yourself if you like:

EGYPT:

Cavalry:
1x General's Bodyguard
2x Desert Cavalry w/1xp and 1 armour (sometimes)
3x Arab Cavalry w/1xp
2x Ghulams w/3xp
1x Bedouin Camel Archers
3x Mamluk Archers w/1-3xp

Infantry:
2x Desert Archers
The rest a variable mix of D. Ghulams, Ghazis, Mutawiwa (sp?), and Nubian Spearmen - I don't think it matters much, the cavalry is the bone of contention.

Kingdom of Jerusalem:

It varies a bit, but my basic army has been:

Cavalry:
1x General's Bodyguard w/3xp
1x Constable of Jerusalem
1x Master of the Templars
2x Templar Knights w/1xp
1x Templar Confrere w/1xp
3x Knights of Jerusalem w/3xp
2x Turkopoles

Infantry:
1x Templar Crossbowmen w/1xp
1x Marionites of Lebanon
2x Sodeer Archers w/1xp
5x Templar Sergeants w/1xp (or Crusader Sergeants when available, the extra 30 men in the unit is nice to have)

Pick a hilly desert map, make sure you are playing as KoJ, and are attacking with the AI set to defending. Difficulty: Hard.

Also, bear in mind, this would be equivalent to the first such battle in the campaign... later battles have less 'special' cavalry as the Constable, the Marshall, and the Templars all take casualties and have to be replaced with lower xp Knights of Jerusalem. And since the AI tends to target their missile fire on the best missile unit in the player's armies, the Templar Crossbowmen are only good for 3-4 battles before needing replaced with something else too... So adjust the unit composition accordingly as you see fit.

I'm a turn away from having Marionites from Lebanon coming out of two castles, and 3 turns from a third castle producing them... so that should help. I'll bump up to 5 foot missile units in my army, all Marionites, and if I remember my last campaign as KoJ correctly, that's what turned the corner for me.

[VersionLangley]

ok....i did the customes...both tactics should solve your cav dead rate perhaps

tactics 1 use turkopoles and half of your arch on enemy's cavalry only, the other half on guard for enemy's horse archers....MOVE SLOWLY

Pros: cav survive better---> unique cav died minimal
Cons: arch casualty high
Hard: died 22% .....army's cav mortality rate: 29%
Very Hard: died 28%......army's cav mortality rate: 27% (doing better as i learned from the Hard game ) i only lost 2 from marshall of templars and 5 from constable if i remember correctly

tactics 2: full out cav charge and surround
Pros: arch survive better
Cons: cav died a little more

Hard: died 22%.........army's cav mortality rate: 36%

so i'll say tactics 1 is better since arch mercs is cheaper i think.

Additional suggest on army's composition: get some more melee light cav

I hope this helps incomitatus...if you have questions on my maneuver plz ask

edit: upload replays is quite easy m8...simply press the attachment button when "go Advanced" when posting..zipped up the replays files first and each replays only about 100kb

[SirRobin]

I must admit I haven't read everything you posted, but here's my general tip:

Don't bother with mounted knights - light cavalry fill their role nicely and are cheaper.

Block their egyptian ports. Defend till their troop levels decrease. Meanwhile build up the coastal cities (convert from castles early).

Then build lots and lots of troops and attack. Use lots of archers and spearmen since the enemy is mainly mounted.