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  1. #1
    Salem1's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Currently reading about Finland's status as part of Sweden, a favorite subject of mine.

    I was inspired to create this thread by the other one about Ottomans effects in the Balkans. Here I've attempted to explain why some people think as they do and argue against that thinking with arguments based on explaining the circumstances. This thread's foremost purpose is to reach an accurate picture of Finland's status as part of Sweden and has nothing to do with me trying to wash any hands.

    1. ''Finland had to fight for itself and was an expendable battleground''
    This argument claims that although part of Sweden, it was nothing but an expendable buffer region against Russia, the battleground between the two nations. This has a quite natural explanation. First of all the location was located inbetween Novgorod (later Muscovy & Russia - for simplicity's sake I will hereby refer to all three as Russia) and Sweden.

    The other part, which is my own conclusion, is that Sweden itself was not agriculturally rich in the first place and supplying an army in Finland was a nightmare for anyone involved because of the landscape and the very sparse population which meant that there were no centers to control. This meant that a kind of indecisive guerilla warfare tended to surface in Finland since a decisive conclusion was rarely possible, bringing with itself long grinds between Russia and Sweden. There were no cities to capture, no armies to face and crush, no prosperous areas to conquer.

    The third reason is that Sweden constantly had to guard itself against attacks by Denmark-Norway. Even during the Finnish War which tore Finland from Sweden, a lot of Swedish troops could not be deployed in Finland because it would mean that Sweden itself would lie completely open to Danish-Norwegian attack.

    In conclusion, this argument is founded upon the reality of Sweden's situation and Finland's natural makeup but makes the fault of assuming that this was an engineering on Sweden's part. On the contrary, Sweden fought a war for thirty years trying to bring the Finnish border further east during the middle ages of Russian-Swedish wars. Later on the provinces of Kexholm & Ingria would be annexed into Sweden. The only purpose of Kexholm was to serve as a buffer region for Finland proper - Gustav Adolf II himself said, presumably about Kexholm, that he ''hoped it would be hard for the Russian to jump across this lake''. Ingria had the same purpose along with the strategic motivation of forcing Russian trade to pass through Swedish land.



    2. ''Finns were mistreated second-class citizens in Sweden''
    This I have found to have a more tangible foundation:
    1) The Finnish language was not supposed to be used for official purposes outside of church duties.
    2) Finns were exploited by Swedes.

    The first one is a rather natural occurance considering that Finland was an integrated part of Sweden. Finnish was supressed in official matters because the Swedish statesmen wished to maintain unity in the country and bring about closer integration, the same aim of Karl XI's politics in the mid-late 17th century. Danish and Norwegian received the same treatment but harsher until the provinces of Jämtland, Härjedal, Skåne, Halland & Bohuslän - but not Gotland which was simply Swedish under Danish rule AFAIK - had become culturally Swedish and the policy was no longer necessary.

    You won't find people speaking Finnish on these boards either outside of the foreign language part. Everyday useage of Finnish was completely accepted though. I would think that the reason stuff like newspapers were (correct me if I'm wrong) always written in Swedish was that it was simply more convenient as Swedes would understand it too, that would also bring about larger Finnish knowledge of Swedish, rather than some national policy of language suppression. Back in those days a lot of people - many, many more than today - knew and spoke Swedish in Finland. Most of them were either Finns that simply spoke Swedish (most frequent near the coastline) or Finland-Swedes, ie. Finns with Swedish background.

    Part of this goes hand in hand with the second reason. Because the coastline and its hinterlands contained the vast bulk of the Swedish-speaking population, was the easiest & closest to access from anywhere else in the Swedish realm and was where much/most of the population was located, it only makes sense to focus development and such on this region. One must understand that the reason for this is not that Finns in the inland were disregarded, but that in short summary inland Finland was much larger and less valuable while also being much harder to get around etc. I would think that the people living near the coastline happening to speak Swedish was a favorite pretext for accusations of mistreatment against Finns among later Finnish nationalists.

    Also, I have heard that Finns were in general just simply treated worse than Swedes by the Swedish state. This has two parts. One; Finland was a poorer, less populated area than Sweden which led to there also being less nobles, which in turn meant that more of Finland than Sweden was crown land rather than noble land. Crown lands didn't have to pay taxes to a noble but were required to conscript proportionally more men than noble lands. It was exactly the same in Sweden, but here more land was held by nobles. This ceased to be the case after Karl XI reformed Indelingsverket, the system of recruitment in Sweden, which had previously relied more on just conscripting people than formal training and proportional numbers of recruits. With this reform ended the indirect injustice that was the greater conscription of Finns.

    There are also accounts of Finns being harshly taxed and so on. To this I say that it was the same in Sweden. Swedish peasants were taxed just as harshly. The difference could be related to the first argument in that Sweden pretty much never experienced a foreign invasion after a while in history while Finland continued to be invaded by Russia, thus imposing relatively harsher conditions. Basically, the mistake is that Finland gets viewed as a separate entity as if Swedish policies were only subject to Finland but not to Sweden. Thus, general harshness is misconstructed into anti-Finn treatment. Contrary to other cases such as Ottoman dominance of the Balkans where riots and uprisings were relatively frequent compared to Finland where the only thing of note that has happened is a very small nationalist officer conspiracy 20 years before Russia annexed Finland, Finns seem by my conclusion to have experienced this more as harsh times than an effort on Sweden's part to crack down on Finland.



    3. ''Finland was better off without Sweden''
    This argument is born out of Finland's autonomous existance, which brought great development to Finland. The thing is that it did the same to Sweden simply as a result of the 19th century. Everything that improved in Finland improved in Sweden too at the same time. The only thing that imo holds any credit here is that Finnish became the language for official matters in Finland, a title previously held by Swedish. This meant that officials didn't have to know Swedish any longer. As it had always been, it was still in the interest of anyone who wished to deal with a Swede to learn Swedish since the two languages couldn't communicate with eachother. Only with the coming of English has this been rendered moot. This helps to explain why coast-Finns to inland-Finns had and continue to have different proportions of Swedish aptitude since the former group was much closer both by geography and travel time to Sweden.

    Also, Finns were not required to serve in the military anymore in Russia. I explain this as a conscious effort on Russia's part to becalm the Finns into acceptance since the Russians were very aware of Finnish skepticism against Russia, what with migrations to Sweden and constant guerilla resistance during the Finnish War out of fear of becoming part of Russia. Russia could afford to appease the poor backwater of Finland in a way Sweden could not afford to do and Sweden was not in the same shoes as Russia on the matter anyway, it would be like suddenly starting to appease a random part of the country just because. Russians knew that they couldn't afford to treat Finland the same way they treated what would come to be called Old Finland, which was annexed earlier during the 18th century and not appeased, which was a large part of why Finns were so wary of Russian rule during the Finnish War - they saw the effects of Russian rule right across the border. Of course, Finns couldn't care less whatever agenda Russia had with doing this because they were being appeased, which is a perfectly reasonable way of thinking if a bit of a misrepresentation of the real situation.
    Last edited by Salem1; May 16, 2010 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    The Ugric peoples around Baltics had basically three options.
    To end up under German, Russian or Swedish domination.

    Those who ended up under Russians are pretty much disappeared by now and we Estonians have always envied the Finns who got the Swedes instead of the Germans.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    The Ugric peoples around Baltics had basically three options.
    To end up under German, Russian or Swedish domination.

    Those who ended up under Russians are pretty much disappeared by now and we Estonians have always envied the Finns who got the Swedes instead of the Germans.
    that sounds so damn hilarious man! someone should make a comic based on what you just said, or just the Baltic in general.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Salem1 View Post
    that sounds so damn hilarious man! someone should make a comic based on what you just said, or just the Baltic in general.

    And whats even more funny, its true.

    Finland and Estonia were the only ones who managed to grow large enough to keep their independent characteristics. Those under Russia... well there are few of them.


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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by HansDuet View Post
    And whats even more funny, its true.

    Finland and Estonia were the only ones who managed to grow large enough to keep their independent characteristics. Those under Russia... well there are few of them.
    Not enough Swedes to to truly assimilate the Finns I imagine.
    And only enough Germans to form a small upper class that quickly assimilated anyone who somehow managed to rise on the social ladder but didn't concern themselves with the masses of savage undeutsche below them. Reformation also helped a lot of course.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    I do wonder what is the point of this thread? To prove that Finland should have remained as part of Sweden?

  7. #7
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    The Ugric peoples around Baltics had basically three options.
    To end up under German, Russian or Swedish domination.

    Those who ended up under Russians are pretty much disappeared by now and we Estonians have always envied the Finns who got the Swedes instead of the Germans.
    There are no Ugrics in the Baltic region. Only Finnics
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    Those who ended up under Russians are pretty much disappeared by now and we Estonians have always envied the Finns who got the Swedes instead of the Germans.
    Interestingly I have also heard it from the Latvians..

    Sweden ruled Finland why it was easy to do, no resistance existed across the other side of Bothnia

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Its a shame that when everybody were trying to conquer us in the 13th century the Swedes were the only one we managed to drive away.
    :

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    Its a shame that when everybody were trying to conquer us in the 13th century the Swedes were the only one we managed to drive away.
    :
    oh the irony!

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Maybe you Finns like to emphasize the finn part in Finno-Ugric but down here it tends to be the opposite

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    Maybe you Finns like to emphasize the finn part in Finno-Ugric but down here it tends to be the opposite
    Strange. Because you don't speak an Ugric language.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugric_languages
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Yes but we are going to say either "soome-ugri" or "ugri" but not going to self identify with "soome" part.



    There is of course a more precise term for our close group of languages around Baltics - "läänemeresoome"
    Finno-Baltic in English, I guess.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    Yes but we are going to say either "soome-ugri" or "ugri" but not going to self identify with "soome" part.



    There is of course a more precise term for our close group of languages around Baltics - "läänemeresoome"
    Finno-Baltic in English, I guess.
    Bingo!

    The most used term in English is Baltic Finn(ish) and the language group is Baltic-Finnic or simply Finnic. In Finnish it is practically the same as in Estonian: itämerensuomalaiset (I've always thought the Baltic Sea was more logically named in Estonian )

    Our connection to "the Ugrian side" of the language family is distant, all things considered.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    As to the actual topic being discussed, the spread of Swedish power into what later became Finland occurred quite naturally as a result of rising local powers in the near abroad. The spread of Christianity brought western Finland under Swedish domain and administration, which probably had an older history in the form of some kind of military co-operation against the Karelians and Novgorodians in the past. It is to be noted that Swedish migration was not particularily extensive and that Finnish remained the language of the nobility as well as the clergy up until the 17th century, when the Swedish state was going through a phase of centralization and modernization.

    But. The Russian conquest of Finland in 1809 gave Finland a state with defined borders and legally autonomous existence, which eventually lead to Finland becoming a modern nation state with Finnish as its official language, and not only a nominal language as is the case with Irish currently in Ireland, but a living and literarily, culturally vibrant language. I think that the conditions that allowed the Finns and their peculiar language to develop as they did would never have occurred under Swedish rule, or at least not to the same extent. Russian eagerness to drive Finland and Sweden apart by supporting Finnish expressions of a Finnish national identity gave it state approval to some extent to exist and develop, while the political twist between a centralizing Russia and a newly awoken political entity called Finland laid the ground for the consequent struggles between Finland and St. Petersburg, which eventually lead to independence.
    Last edited by wilpuri; May 17, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    I always thought Sweden was part of Finland.. But better part of Sweden than Russia.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Gentlemen let us remain on-topic. We are in the VV afterall, not the 'Pit.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    @wilpuri

    When an Estonian wants to emphasize our roots in the sense of belonging to a bigger group of people he is most likely going to use the word "[soome-]ugri" regardless of the fact that it may be imprecise in scientific sense.

    but a living and literarily, culturally vibrant language.
    But only because there was already strong basis for it established by the Swedish rule and the reformation that had turned most of the nation literate and not just literate but personally free. You Finns are a free people, we Estonians are a slave people.
    Last edited by Trax; May 17, 2010 at 05:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    @wilpuri

    When an Estonian want's to emphasize our roots in the sense of belonging to a bigger group of people he is most likely going to use the word "[soome-]ugri" regardless of the fact that it may be imprecise in scientific sense.
    I can understand that. I suppose it would be the same here with "suomalaisugrilainen", which I find odd - before the wars Baltic Finnish kinship was quite commonly promoted. I guess it became politically too incendiary after WWII. I find "people in general" at least in Finland have a pitiful grasp of such matters, at least my generation.

    But only because there was already strong basis for it established by the Swedish rule and the reformation that had turned most of the nation literate and not just literate but personally free. You Finns are a free people, we Estonians are a slave people.
    You are right, Finnish does have a literary past in late medieval religious writing and translations which obviously is very important as it created the need for a written Finnish language. But the language was being, or had been, pushed out of official functions by the time of the Finnish War in 1809. Russian rule allowed for its revival into a language on par with any high cultural language.

    Estonians have a somewhat different history. The Baltic Germans were conquerors much more so than the Swedes, into whose kingdom western "Finland" at first, and the rest of "Finland" later, integrated relatively peacefully, despite later romantication. The Estonians, who were far more organized and numerous at that point in time, put up a stiffer fight and were subdued by a different kind of enemy. If it is any consolation to you, I think that Estonia's recent regaining of independence and the struggle that preceded has made the current Estonian generation much more "nationally aware" and in that sense you are more sovereign than Finland.
    Last edited by wilpuri; May 17, 2010 at 04:51 PM.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Educate me on Finland as part of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    I can understand that. I suppose it would be the same here with "suomalaisugrilainen", which I find odd - before the wars Baltic Finnish kinship was quite commonly promoted. I guess it became politically too incendiary after WWII. I find "people in general" at least in Finland have a pitiful grasp of such matters, at least my generation.
    I think the stressing of the Ugric connection may have been a convenient way of usurping some of the Hungarian achievements - the nation with the most glorious history among Finno-Ugric peoples.



    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    You are right, Finnish does have a literary past in late medieval religious writing and translations which obviously is very important as it created the need for a written Finnish language. But the language was being, or had been, pushed out of official functions by the time of the Finnish War in 1809. Russian rule allowed for its revival into a language on par with any high cultural language.
    Well, it seems that you guys got lucky twice. To us the Russian conquest hundred years earlier meant entering into the darkest days of serfdom. Absolute domination by the Baltic Germans. In retrospect the brief Swedish rule that preceded this period probably saved us as a nation by creating a school system so by the 18th century even though we were little better off than slaves we were at least largely literate slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    If it is any consolation to you, I think that Estonia's recent regaining of independence and the struggle that preceded has made the current Estonian generation much more "nationally aware" and in that sense you are more sovereign than Finland.
    The old serf mentality is still alive and well. No matter how badly the government or your employer screws you most Estonians will swallow the grudge and do nothing except keep on working.
    Last edited by Trax; May 18, 2010 at 11:15 AM.

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