Negative Aspects of Ottoman Rule

[Cornelius Plautus]

Reading about the Ottoman Empire, I couldn't help but notice how incredibly civil and tolerant they seemed over several centuries. While they didn't treat Jews and Christians as equals to the Muslims, they seemed to have been far less persecuted than Jews and dissidents would have been in Western Christendom. Additionally, the Ottomans seemed to have a great emphasis on hygiene that European nations lack. Now, I am aware of the Armenian Genocide, but as that happened after the Young Turk revolution, I count it more as a Turkish act than an Ottoman one. This point brings me to my question: what were the vices of the Ottoman Empire? I am aware that all civilizations stained their records with some wrongdoings, but from what I've read, I cant find many serious offenses committed by the Ottomans.

[Publius Clodius Pulcher]

Reading about the Ottoman Empire, I couldn't help but notice how incredibly civil and tolerant they seemed over several centuries. While they didn't treat Jews and Christians as equals to the Muslims, they seemed to have been far less persecuted than Jews and dissidents would have been in Western Christendom. Additionally, the Ottomans seemed to have a great emphasis on hygiene that European nations lack. Now, I am aware of the Armenian Genocide, but as that happened after the Young Turk revolution, I count it more as a Turkish act than an Ottoman one. This point brings me to my question: what were the vices of the Ottoman Empire? I am aware that all civilizations stained their records with some wrongdoings, but from what I've read, I cant find many serious offenses committed by the Ottomans.

To begin with, while the Armenian Genocide may have occurred after the Young Turk revolution, the persecution that laid the groundwork was begun under Sultan Abdulhamid II during the later years of the 19th century.

The negative aspects were more about stagnation than anything else. Also, lots of states within the Ottoman empire wanted their official independence, even though they had autonomy within the empire.

[hellheaven1987]

Ottoman's problem was that they put religion as first among all, hence many of its functions were based on religions itself. The result was it left a clear divide between each ethnics, and when the enlightment came, Muslims refused to grant equal right to other religions and believed it was their traditional right to treat others as second class citizens. It was under this situation that Istanbul was besieged by its Christian subjects outside and faced Muslim rebels inside, forced to adopt half-effort reform that hurted its society and economy badly. With a chaotic society and injuried economy, more unrests happened and caused Muslims felt even more uneasied, which resulted all Islamic nationalism and the attempt to use extreme measures against rebelled subjects.

By the way, can Harem count as a vice?? Personally I find it is quite an awesome thing for men to own harem.

[dogukan]

Ottoman's problem was that they put religion as first among all, hence many of its functions were based on religions itself. The result was it left a clear divide between each ethnics, and when the enlightment came, Muslims refused to grant equal right to other religions and believed it was their traditional right to treat others as second class citizens. It was under this situation that Istanbul was besieged by its Christian subjects outside and faced Muslim rebels inside, forced to adopt half-effort reform that hurted its society and economy badly. With a chaotic society and injuried economy, more unrests happened and caused Muslims felt even more uneasied, which resulted all Islamic nationalism and the attempt to use extreme measures against rebelled subjects.

By the way, can Harem count as a vice?? Personally I find it is quite an awesome thing for men to own harem.

Harem is Sultan's house....It does not necessaricly means, room with chicks from all over the world.
---
By the way Ottoman's putting religion above all caused lots of people to convert. Which explains why Turks do not look Turkic. Turkishness and the nationalism is a late 19.th century invention.
Even Turkics who were not sunni were treated bad. (thats why large numbers of Turkmens left for Iran)

[Athena,]

Ottoman's problem was that they put religion as first among all, hence many of its functions were based on religions itself.

And Europe didnt put Religion first?

The result was it left a clear divide between each ethnics,

The Islamic religion doesnt except ethnic prejudices

and when the enlightment came, Muslims refused to grant equal right to other religions and believed it was their traditional right to treat others as second class citizens.

Opposed to what? Europe? Even in countries that fostered centers of the Age of Enlightenment had many policies of ethnic segregration and racisim.

which resulted all Islamic nationalism and the attempt to use extreme measures against rebelled subjects.

What the hell is Islamic Nationalism? I never knew Islamic was a Nationality.


What a stupid thing to say

Listen, when you what to critique a society of history its important to compare it to its contmporay equals. And when the Ottoman Empire's administrative morality is compared to others of its time, its easy to see that Ottoman society was ahead of others in terms of moral progression.
At least during the enlightenment, give the context of your post I assume thats what your talking about

[hellheaven1987]

And Europe didnt put Religion first?

Europe gave up that view after Thirty Years War.

The Islamic religion doesnt except ethnic prejudices

Sure, no wonder Christians in Ottoman Empire rebelled.

Opposed to what? Europe? Even in countries that fostered centers of the Age of Enlightenment had many policies of ethnic segregration and racisim.

Not in 19th Century.

What a stupid thing to say

Listen, when you what to critique a society of history its important to compare it to its contmporay equals. And when the Ottoman Empire's administrative morality is compared to others of its time, its easy to see that Ottoman society was ahead of others in terms of moral progression.
At least during the enlightenment, give the context of your post I assume thats what your talking about

Sure, how about you go and explain how Ottoman collapsed?? I am ready to hear your conspiracied theory about how Christians and Europeans sabotage Ottoman Empire into ruin.

[Publius Clodius Pulcher]

This is just terrible stuff in general.

Europe gave up that view after Thirty Years War.

This is at least somewhat true, but still false. Persecution of the Hugenots in France was persistent until the Revolution, and the Prussian state was well known for welcoming any persecuted peoples from across Europe to settle reclaimed land. Europe continued to persecute opposing religions, it simply took a back seat to empire management.

Sure, no wonder Christians in Ottoman Empire rebelled.

Seriously? The Balkan Christians revolted due to ethnic reasons, rather than religious reasons. In contrast, the Arab revolt against the Ottomans during WWI was much more aggressive, and was perpetuated by Muslims against Muslims. The Ottoman empire had a large degree of religious freedom, especially considering the amount of ethnicities and religions it contained. Remember that at this point in history, every Jew in Russia had to be settled in the Pale.

Not in 19th Century.

19th century is very different from "after the 30 years war". Again though, the Pale of settlement in Russia is an obvious example of religious constraints in Europe during the 1800s. Never seen Fiddle on the Roof?

Sure, how about you go and explain how Ottoman collapsed?? I am ready to hear your conspiracied theory about how Christians and Europeans sabotage Ottoman Empire into ruin.

Collapsed due to the increasing pressure of nationalism, not any religious difficulties. Hell, it would have collapsed earlier had Anglican England and Catholic France kept it afloat to keep Russia in check.

[Athena,]

Europe gave up that view after Thirty Years War.



Sure, no wonder Christians in Ottoman Empire rebelled.



Not in 19th Century.



Sure, how about you go and explain how Ottoman collapsed?? I am ready to hear your conspiracied theory about how Christians and Europeans sabotage Ottoman Empire into ruin.

You think Islamic is a nationality,

your point is now invalid to me, on the premise of not makeing the prerequisite for haveing a valid point in my standards.

[hellheaven1987]

You think Islamic is a nationality,

your point is now invalid to me, on the premise of not makeing the prerequisite for haveing a valid point in my standards.

Ya right, I expect you would say that, consider you don't even provide any arguement to counter my original post besides accussing my view is wrong.

The original nationalism within Ottoman Empire during 19th Century was not based on ethnic, but religions, which was why I said it was an Islamical nationalism since it used religious base to support the nationalist feeling. That is largely because that the cultural identity within Ottoman Empire was sololy based on religion and languge along, which identifies whether you are a Greek, Serb, Turk (which includes all Muslims) or Bulgarian (fall out with Greek Orthodoxy which was the solo power to push Bulgarian identity).

[CiviC]

Ya right, I expect you would say that, consider you don't even provide any arguement to counter my original post besides accussing my view is wrong.

The original nationalism within Ottoman Empire during 19th Century was not based on ethnic, but religions, which was why I said it was an Islamical nationalism since it used religious base to support the nationalist feeling. That is largely because that the cultural identity within Ottoman Empire was sololy based on religion and languge along, which identifies whether you are a Greek, Serb, Turk (which includes all Muslims) or Bulgarian (fall out with Greek Orthodoxy which was the solo power to push Bulgarian identity).

Indeed, so much that a Greek convert to Islam was seen as a non Greek, even if he was still speaking Greek as his first language and his family remained Greekophone for generations. Most Greek converts were expelled from Greece because they were considered Turks.

The same Bosniaks who are in fact Slavs converted to Islam were rejected as Serbs or Croats. To the present day at the category of ethnicity in former Yugoslavia they were named simply "Muslims", in the sense of ethnic identity not religion. Croats and Serbs who are two related peoples and speak about the same language base their identity on Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

[Lord Tomyris]

The Islamic religion doesnt except ethnic prejudices

I don't know about today, but it certainly did at its foundation: Allah was seen as the God of the Arabs - his chosen people - during the Muslim conquests of the 8th-9th centuries.

[jo the greek]

I don't know about today, but it certainly did at its foundation: Allah was seen as the God of the Arabs - his chosen people - during the Muslim conquests of the 8th-9th centuries.

hmm never thought of that

[Sher Khan]

Ottoman vices and faults really depended on the specific age the empire was living through at the moment, like every other entity with such a long lifetime. What may seem a weakness at one moment may, in the past or future, become a strength for the empire because of shifting circumstance.

[Jaketh]

they spread islam=bad

[Manoflooks]

The Ottoman Empire was easily one of the most advanced and progressive societies in Europe for the first few hundred years of its existence. They had an exceptionally high tolerance rate for the times, allowed their people quite a lot of autonomy, and were generally technologically advanced.

Come the printing press, however, the Ottomans lost their progressiveness, because they refused to allow it to be used in their Empire. As a result, the development and spread of ideas that led to the modern age did not develop like they did in Europe, and that, coupled with a reactionary military and populace, cause it to stagnate. By the mid 1700s, their progress, in everything ranging from the military to human rights, were far behind most of Europe(though their record with human rights wasnt exactly perfect either at that point).

[{II}Sovereign]

Come the printing press, however, the Ottomans lost their progressiveness, because they refused to allow it to be used in their Empire. As a result, the development and spread of ideas that led to the modern age did not develop like they did in Europe, and that, coupled with a reactionary military and populace, cause it to stagnate. By the mid 1700s, their progress, in everything ranging from the military to human rights, were far behind most of Europe(though their record with human rights wasnt exactly perfect either at that point).

I don't agree with this whole notion that because a nation doesn't have a printing press that they somehow lose "progressiveness"

Seems to me that there were several societies before the 1500's that fared just fine with the old scrolls and archive..

Most iconic negative to me is the 'war crimes' for the late Ottoman Empire

The ethnic cleansing of the Ottoman Empire's Christian population, with the most prominent among them being the deportation and massacres of Armenians (similar policies were enacted against the Assyrians and Ottoman Greeks) during the final years of the Ottoman Empire is considered genocide.The Ottomans saw the entire Armenian population as an enemythat had chosen to side with Russia at the beginning of the war.In early 1915, a number of Armenian nationalist groups such as the Armenakan, Dashnak and Hunchak organizations joined the Russian forces, and the Ottoman government used this as a pretext to issue the Tehcir Law which started the deportation of the Armenians from eastern Anatolia to Syria between 1915 and 1917. The exact number of deaths is unknown, although Balakian gives a range of 250,000 to 1.5 million for the deaths of Armenians, the International Association of Genocide Scholars estimates over 1 million.The government of Turkey has consistently rejected charges of genocide, arguing that those who died were victims of inter-ethnic fighting, famine or disease during the First World War

From wiki

[Gestalt]

Very well put Manoflooks.That is quite true.The conservative grand Muftis who became more powerful as time progressed played a large role in stagnating future developments and modernizations.That is why there were major riots and Sultans being overthrown because attempts to modernize the military and borrow western technology were though as sacrilegious.

[General David]

Cornelius,

Apart from the Armenian Genocide which you relate more to modern Turkey than to the Ottoman Empire (somebody also mentioned the 1895-96 Hamidian massacre), I would have to question the way the Ottomans conscripted Janissaries, through what is called the devshirme system. Christian boys were forcefully converted to Islam and fought in wars which were, more often than not, against other Christians. I doubt that their families were very fond of having their children taken away like that...

Additionally, the Ottomans seemed to have a great emphasis on hygiene that European nations lack.

This is very true, although the emphasis on hygiene and the use of baths seems to have been a general oriental practice not exclusive to the Ottomans, inherited from the Romans (through the Byzantines).

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

Cornelius,

Apart from the Armenian Genocide which you relate more to modern Turkey than to the Ottoman Empire (somebody also mentioned the 1895-96 Hamidian massacre), I would have to question the way the Ottomans conscripted Janissaries, through what is called the devshirme system. Christian boys were forcefully converted to Islam and fought in wars which were, more often than not, against other Christians. I doubt that their families were very fond of having their children taken away like that...

Actually families wanted their sons as janissaries, Ottomans also paid money to that family and that family was very happy!

[CiviC]

Actually families wanted their sons as janissaries, Ottomans also paid money to that family and that family was very happy!

This is why whole villages went to hide in the woods with their children to escape from the abductions Ottomans perpetrated periodically.