Kingdom of Jerusalem

[Reaki]

Hello there fellow kings. Just discovered SS and I must say, awesome mod. And just in time I might add because vanilla kingdoms has been getting somehow easy for me lately.

That beign said I immediately jumped into my favourite part of the world. I love this struggle between two vastly different mentalities and defending Jerusalem is really fun for me, but to be honest I am getting cornered heavily. Practically as soon as I started the game, somewhere around turn 10 the AI got medieval on my ass. Both saracens and turks declared war on me, Ive been able to take Damascus but that is as far as I can strech my forces. Still I have enough men to barely defend three locations at once so I have to move around like mad. I havent lost any city/castle yet, but I am very close to it.

The problem is I dont have the strength to defend against those two at once. They throw full stacks at me like there is no tomorrow and it doesnt seem to bother them. Even when they were using militia heavy armies it was tough, but now they started using capable units and that spells doom for me. I even called a crusade on Baghdad in hopes that the crusaders will kill some guys on their way to the target but so far not one crusading army arrived.

My treasury is going somewhere between -1000 and +3500 so I have barely enough money to retrain.

So, my long whine aside, any tips how to get out of this situation? Or maybe how you play KoJ. I almost forgot, playing 6.2, medium, getting five to ten enemies for one of my boys and its still not enough to stop their spam.

[Stario]

"He who defends everything defends nothing." Frederick II, The Great.

[CamilleBonparte]

You should have allied with the Turks and paid them tribute. Holding off the Fatmids stacks alone is hard enough, trying to hold them off and defend against the Turks guarantees you'll be turtling forever. Also, leave your territories which border the Turks decently garrisoned (especially Antioch), because the AI loves to backstab.

[Kaledon]

Ally with the turks. It's not really worth it taking turkish settlements, and they're bastards to fight. Send task forces to mess around with the Breadbasket of the Fatimids. Cairo, Alexandria etc. The ai will often leave far too few defenders in those settlements, as they do not border any enemies. If you just continually defend, you'll find it difficult as the enemy rarely get weaker just from losing armies. Capturing settlements is the only real way to weaken them. And crusades also rock. But make sure, as I said, not to call them on the Turks. It's just not worth it, as Turkish settlements are rather poor but Turkish armies are decent.

[Ichon]

If Turks won't ally with you at this point- and they probably won't without hefty bribe or a common enemy- then muster everything you have to take a weak city or 2 and give it to Byzantines for an alliance. You won't be able to defend anyway at this point. Just don't sack the cities to the ground otherwise Byz won't get any troops to defend in their new cities. Leave barracks.

Make use of HA mercenaries as well. Usually the best bet is all out offensive vs Saracens early in the campaign to use your superior roster while they are weak but too late for that now. You can still put 5-10 armies on a ship and raid down the coast. It won't distract many Saracen armies but it will weaken them somewhat. Sacking their fortresses will make the biggest difference so when you can go on offensive make those your priority. Soon you will face masses of stacks but all full of militia which a few knights can defeat with almost 0 losses.

Otherwise the best bet is call Crusade on a city easier for Crusaders to reach than Baghdad. Even Cairo or Alexandria can take 10-15 turns before the first Crusader army gets close because AI usually send them the long way around and with all the chokepoints the armies waste many turns.

[Kaledon]

Yeah, most of my advice is oriented towards starting a new campaign. Either way though, trashing the Fatimids and taking their wealthy settlements is still usually a better bet. There's a few Turkish settlements that can net a hefty sum, but in general you get more for your money when you take Fatimid settlements. As well, completely focusing on one faction pretty much always makes things easier. If you're unable to negotiate a peace with the Seljuks, I'd still advise focusing on the Fatimids, but you'll have to devote an irritating amount of men to fending off Turkish armies. Ichon's advice about using the Byzantines as a buffer is a good idea.

[Reaki]

Yeah well misery loves company. Got war declaration from Byz. and Jihad on Jerusalem. I think my days are counted . Anyway thanks for all the wisdom, will try to put it in practice.

Also are there any units to avoid in KoJ roster? I didnt really have time to tech so I am more or less stuck on those you begin with but what Ive gathered from my extensive experience with mounted sergeants and sailors, these two seem to die from a direct stare while not doing much themselves. Canons of the Holy Sepulcher doesnt seem to be worth those 810. They look cool but their battle performance was a bit underwhelming for that money and upkeep.

[Ichon]

Yeah well misery loves company. Got war declaration from Byz. and Jihad on Jerusalem. I think my days are counted . Anyway thanks for all the wisdom, will try to put it in practice.

Also are there any units to avoid in KoJ roster? I didnt really have time to tech so I am more or less stuck on those you begin with but what Ive gathered from my extensive experience with mounted sergeants and sailors, these two seem to die from a direct stare while not doing much themselves. Canons of the Holy Sepulcher doesnt seem to be worth those 810. They look cool but their battle performance was a bit underwhelming for that money and upkeep.

Hmm... Byz declared war without having a border with you? I've always wondered if AI bribes other AI to attack because I've seen that happen a few times. Either that or the AI is coded to pile onto the weaker neighbors which is probably good strategy actually.

Well, Byz shouldn't hate you at this point yet so it might still be possible to buy them off with a couple settlements but without those settlements not going to happen. If you don't share border however they aren't likely much of a threat for a long time.

A Jihad on Jerusalem is a serious threat however... if you have Ballista towers in Jerusalem and Large or Huge walls you might be able to use siege to your advantage. Put a full stack inside with 3-4 archers, Cannons, and any other spear/heavy infantry you have and you can defeat 2-3 full stacks before needing massive retraining. The AI will convert many of its closest full stacks to the Jihad thus freeing up your men in other cities to go on a short offensive while the pressure focuses on Jerusalem. Then either retrain in Jerusalem and send reinforcements and outlast the Jihad(which can take about 30-40 turns as the Moors usually send at least 2 stacks) or defeat the most powerful Jihad stacks then abandon the city for 1 turn and let enemy capture it. That ends Jihad and you can recapture it. The only problem is you will lose any churches you've built, otherwise AI usually leaves everything else alone.

KoJ roster well... the sailors are kinda weak but good fodder and on the walls 2 units of sailors vs 1 unit of enemy heavies can usually win saving your own heavies for cleanup or to face the weaker militia where your heavies superior armor will mean few casualties. Cannons are worth the price in sieges. Last game campaign I played in Jerusalem facing a Jihad they saved the city. 5 turns in a row killing 200-300 enemy on the walls each siege attack. By the end they were down to only 12 men as the long period between retraining means they won't be able to be reinforced but they had 9 xp and when armored up later in that campaign were very deadly even outside sieges.

Your real power is the Knights but they are not as effective in sieges. You can sometimes leave 1-2 Knights outside the walls of a full stack defending Jerusalem and since a Jihad usually has so many enemy stacks around they will often just retreat to another point bordering the walls. Or at least draw off 1 enemy stack that pursues them away from walls. If they can enter battle as reinforcements and charge the mass of enemy trying to enter gate you can often get quick rout with fewer losses. You will get access to good heavy infantry but I can't remember how long it takes... if you haven't been able to build much you are stuck with mercenaries or trying to get Guilds. Hospitaliers, Templars, etc are quite useful and way more powerful than anything you'll have for a long time plus really cheap for their armor and charge stats.

[bɑne]

Hmm... Byz declared war without having a border with you? I've always wondered if AI bribes other AI to attack because I've seen that happen a few times. Either that or the AI is coded to pile onto the weaker neighbors which is probably good strategy actually.

That and the more factions you're at war with the more likely it gets for other AIs to jump in to get a piece of the cake (you) before its gone.

[Kulgan]

Hmm... Byz declared war without having a border with you? I've always wondered if AI bribes other AI to attack because I've seen that happen a few times. Either that or the AI is coded to pile onto the weaker neighbors which is probably good strategy actually.

Well, Byz shouldn't hate you at this point yet so it might still be possible to buy them off with a couple settlements but without those settlements not going to happen. If you don't share border however they aren't likely much of a threat for a long time.

A Jihad on Jerusalem is a serious threat however... if you have Ballista towers in Jerusalem and Large or Huge walls you might be able to use siege to your advantage. Put a full stack inside with 3-4 archers, Cannons, and any other spear/heavy infantry you have and you can defeat 2-3 full stacks before needing massive retraining. The AI will convert many of its closest full stacks to the Jihad thus freeing up your men in other cities to go on a short offensive while the pressure focuses on Jerusalem. Then either retrain in Jerusalem and send reinforcements and outlast the Jihad(which can take about 30-40 turns as the Moors usually send at least 2 stacks) or defeat the most powerful Jihad stacks then abandon the city for 1 turn and let enemy capture it. That ends Jihad and you can recapture it. The only problem is you will lose any churches you've built, otherwise AI usually leaves everything else alone.

KoJ roster well... the sailors are kinda weak but good fodder and on the walls 2 units of sailors vs 1 unit of enemy heavies can usually win saving your own heavies for cleanup or to face the weaker militia where your heavies superior armor will mean few casualties. Cannons are worth the price in sieges. Last game campaign I played in Jerusalem facing a Jihad they saved the city. 5 turns in a row killing 200-300 enemy on the walls each siege attack. By the end they were down to only 12 men as the long period between retraining means they won't be able to be reinforced but they had 9 xp and when armored up later in that campaign were very deadly even outside sieges.

Your real power is the Knights but they are not as effective in sieges. You can sometimes leave 1-2 Knights outside the walls of a full stack defending Jerusalem and since a Jihad usually has so many enemy stacks around they will often just retreat to another point bordering the walls. Or at least draw off 1 enemy stack that pursues them away from walls. If they can enter battle as reinforcements and charge the mass of enemy trying to enter gate you can often get quick rout with fewer losses. You will get access to good heavy infantry but I can't remember how long it takes... if you haven't been able to build much you are stuck with mercenaries or trying to get Guilds. Hospitaliers, Templars, etc are quite useful and way more powerful than anything you'll have for a long time plus really cheap for their armor and charge stats.

Exellent analysis! I would just like to add:

The difference between
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(priest) or is this case : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_...Holy_Sepulchre Being a sort of priests, the holy sepulcher devouts being armed with badass weaponry on top.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannons or things that go ' Booom ' a lot

Jerusalem produces exellent troops because of the +4? morale bonus by various buildings. Also the level of the armourer will be high. Resulting in the standard militia being pretty bad ass if used well.
For a good city defense : put a few melee units on the walls together with several crossbows. If the enemy reaches the walls with ladders/towers enagage from one side with melee troops and fire from the other side with crossbows. They will route quickly this way.

Don't defend the gate directly, you'll get overwhelmed eventually. Instead defend the road from the gate to the city center with the rest of your melee force. Eventually your melee troops will tire and route but they will flee to the city center and auto rally once there. This defensive set up allows your crossbows on the walls to fire at the backs of the attacking enemies. This works well especially in Jerusalem because your militia spearmen are good enough to hold out long enough.

Having one or two units of Canons are great to make the last stand in such battles. Only use them when all other troops are depleted and the enemy are exhausted.

Also it's best to get a hospitallers or a templars in Jerusalem : the knights with the Jerusalem morale bonusses are simply bad ass! Money isn't much of an issue when you take a few enemy territories.

Good luck

[Reaki]

Don't defend the gate directly, you'll get overwhelmed eventually.

Well fighting in streets means massing your units together while giving enemy ample oportunity to use their troops to shoot directly as oposed to high angle harmless projetiles shot over the gates. Also why not use the burning oil dispenser included in gates? If you have enough troops to keep the enemy from advancing(pushing themselves out of the spot where the oil flows) it seemed to me like a good way to kill and rout them.

Also catapults suck . In offense they are bloody weak and in defense I cant get them to shoot over the walls.
Trebuchets take about half ammo to bring down one section of stone wall(as oposed to more than full ammo supply from catapults). If possitioned well, they can kill siege tower just when the whole enemy unit marched inside which equals a lot of easy kills. Also killing AI general with trebuchet while he is waiting for my gate to break down always makes me go .

[Rolling Thunder]

Units to avoid? Don't know. But I'll tell you this: Lance Charges.

A full on, heavy-cavalry lance charge will eviscerate an enemy infantry formation, often killing half to three quarters of the men. With super-heavies, such as Scholarii, or super-shock units, like Sicilian-Norman knights and KoJ, you may be able to wipe out enemy infantry while they're still moving. So your tactic as KoJ should be to kill all the Saracen infantry (spearmen included!) with your cavalry, and their horse archers with your crossbowmen or archers. Basically, if you put a full stack together, plus a general, with at least 4 units of knights, 1 unit of dismounted knights/Canons of the Holy/heavy infantry, and the rest spearmen or better yet militia, and a crap-ton of crossbowmen, you've got it good. Those 4 units of knights and your general charge the enemy, smash them and begin breaking up the formation from the start. Charge-pull out-charge-pull out-charge. Focus missile fire on elite parts of the enemy army (2-handed weapon users like Janissaries or Tayadibiina are a good target). Ignore the horse archers unless they get close. When they hit your lines, finish off the stragglers, and then hit the main part of their forces in the rear with your cavalry. Try to avoid engaging their heavy cavalry.

[Vespasian92]

Canons not worth it? Wow what game are you playing? Lol seriously, they are the best infantry you will get for a long time, at least you can upgrade a Hospitaller or Templar guild to a major house for the dismounted knights. At least leave one unit of them in Jerusalem against the Jihad.

[Reaki]

Dont know, the byz decided they fancy my island castle ;p Landed full stack out there, no point in trying to defend that :p.

I abandoned the game, I had 4 full stacks attacking Jerusalem and the built up devastation + loss of Jeru send me down under. Not enough money for anything.

Anyway I followed some of your advice in my second game and its much, much better. I am actually hoping to conquer last three fatimid cities tomorrow and then move on. I cant believe I was able to hold out for that long my last game when I saw the number of cities those arab basterds have .


So for all of you having problems with KoJ, just look few posts back and follow the collective wisdom.

Canons not worth it? Wow what game are you playing? Lol seriously, they are the best infantry you will get for a long time, at least you can upgrade a Hospitaller or Templar guild to a major house for the dismounted knights. At least leave one unit of them in Jerusalem against the Jihad.

A game where I needed the mass of bodies to plug holes in my walls/gates. They may be great when you dont struggle for survival every turn, but after two battles they were useless(about ten of them left) and it takes way too long to reinforce them.

[Vespasian92]

Then idk what your using them for if the whole unit is down to 10 men in two battles on M/M.

[Reaki]

Canons not worth it? Wow what game are you playing? Lol seriously, they are the best infantry you will get for a long time, at least you can upgrade a Hospitaller or Templar guild to a major house for the dismounted knights. At least leave one unit of them in Jerusalem against the Jihad.

Then idk what your using them for if the whole unit is down to 10 men in two battles on M/M.

Did you even read the topic you are replying in?
For fighting against vast enemy number superiority. I know, shocking.
These are not Kensais from mongol invasion....

Oh I do miss 16 sword saints carving up full enemy stacks

[Vespasian92]

Lol they work for me charging and carving up like 300 surrounding enemies. Im not arguing with you at all or anything.

[Ichon]

As for Cannons or any heavy infantry they should not be committed to battle right away unless that is all you have or you have overwhelming numbers. Putting them on front line right away exposes them to charges and exhaustion meaning you will lose 2x or 3x the number you should if you wait a bit then send them in. Only time they are worth putting in battle right away is holding the wall in sieges where they plus 1 unit of crossbows can often hold an entire wing of your walls vs 2-3 ladders/towers all by themselves with relatively few losses. That is 2 units fighting 3-4 enemy which allows other units to block the other wall or gate/breach more effectively. Sometimes if the enemy breaches walls Cannons can quickly dispatch enemy on wall then climb down ladders and hit the other guys at breach/gate in the rear.

[Tears of Destiny]

Canons not cannons!

As in holy law, kinda canon!


JIhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

[Stario]

Dont know, the byz decided they fancy my island castle ;p Landed full stack out there, no point in trying to defend that :p.

You should've abandoned you game. A struggle is FUN; once you get better you will pwn the AI and the game will get boring; some of the best fun i had in MTWII was when i was first starting out at the game. Next time make sure you have atleast one diplomat in allied territory. Sometimes it is better to let your allies hold your settlements for you (if you cannot hold them yourself) by giving the settlements to them for some $coin$. You can then later buy the settlement back of them or use force to get it back when the time is more appropriate; you will even find the AI is usually nice enough to continue to develop your settlements for you. Try playing game without saving also. It can be lots of fun too.