Puppeteer
Saddams Trial
Well well, how will this play out?
What do you think of the trial? is it just a show?
I just watched BBC where they interviewed a man and he started a fierce debate with the female repoter.
He was very upset and at the end he said something like: "How many americans were put on trial for the killings (gasings, use of chemical weapons.. can't remember which one he said) in vietnam?"
For my name is Legion
Don't have time for a long post... gah, work.
It is a show. The fact that "for security reasons" the judges have not declared their names and that some witnesses will have confesions admited by letter (anyone thinking Middle Ages?) constitute clear signs that this is a show.
I am not debatting whether the trial is just or not, or whether Saddam is guilty or not. But the way in which the trial is set up is not anywhere near due course of justice...
In the long run, we are all dead - John Maynard Keynes
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I'm from the US, I saw some scenes from CNN. The reporters were going on and on about how 'subdued' Saddam was during the trial. I think the thing is a sham, and he knows he is walking dead. The reporter even made a note of how similar Saddam's precedings were to the Nuremburg trails. Which, of course, weren't exactly 'trails' at all.
Praefectus
This is what I think about the whole Saddam sham.
First, Saddam's nation Iraq has collapsed. He flees like some wretched political refugee and is arrested like one.
And then guess what happens? He gets better treatment under US detention. He gets clean clothes. He gets good food. Heck, he even has time to write a few novels.
Do you know what I think about this whole thing?
Saddam was a tool, is a tool, and will be a tool for the US Republicans. There was no other bigger helper other than Saddam Hussein that allowed Republicans to continue to dominate US politics to suit their ends.
Now I see is a nation, once the pride of the Arab world and the center of civilization, beaten down and treated like a dirty prostitute. I see a nation which once was a pride of faith and belief, now seeing her own daughters and wives and mothers and aunts selling their flesh in Baghdad. I see a nation with her heritage pillaged and sold in the black markets, her great claims to history looted and her pride and prestige crushed to smithereens. This is the Iraq that Saddam and the US have brought to the Iraqis.
Older guy on TWC.
Done with National Service. NOT patriotic. MORE realist. Just gimme cash.
Dishing out cheap shots since 2006.
Senator
I think Saddam should suffer a couple of years in prison and then be executed.
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Show trial.
...but I think Germany with home advantage will raise their game as always for the big ones and win the title. Post #260
United statés are already disaided what the judge will be. This is not fair trial because US has set the court. Only show no fair court. Us has put the court. And nobody deserves death. Not even Saddam.
Even Bush doesn't deserve death!
Agree with everything you said except the prostitute part. No need to insult prostitute's by comparing them to America's treatment of Iraq.Now I see is a nation, once the pride of the Arab world and the center of civilization, beaten down and treated like a dirty prostitute.
Show trial for the benefit of the republicans and their Iraqi puppet government.
"In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality." - Karl Marx on CapitalismUnder the patronage of the venerable Marshal Qin. Proud member of the house of Sybian.
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Carolus Rex
death is the easy way out. murderers like saddam should be locked up in a prison like an animal for the rest of his life.
Well as to that quote, that's preposterous. We were actually at WAR in Vietnam, and all weapons were used in an attempt to safeguard American soldiers from the NVA and Vietcong, and the tactics of those groups (hiding among civilian groups for ambushes, etc.) caused civilian deaths, not the way in which weapons were used. Plus Saddam tested chemical weapons on his own people, which I think is considered worse than doing it to innocent people of another country for some reason.Originally Posted by Bwaho
But I think the trial has to be a show, or else bad things tend to happen...If anyone has heard anything about the trial for Milosevic, he has actually gained popularity back in his homeland during its course, and even won an election in Yugoslavia (though of course he couldn't fill the position). Giving such people the opportunity to "defend themselves" often leads to them using the trials as propaganda for their own people, ignoring the actual point of defending themselves against sentencing. Unfortunately I think people like Saddam really can't be afforded justice because of that politicizing. He will probably be executed, which in my mind seems particularly barbaric since this all stemmed from us attacking his country; but I suppose the American populace will be sated.
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Puppeteer
Very strange logic. It's ok to kill innocent people as long as they are not your citizens?Plus Saddam tested chemical weapons on his own people, which I think is considered worse than doing it to innocent people of another country for some reason
Not taking sides with Saddam here but couldn't the same be said for the rebellious kurds? and that Saddam was just acting out of national interests?We were actually at WAR in Vietnam, and all weapons were used in an attempt to safeguard American soldiers from the NVA and Vietcong, and the tactics of those groups (hiding among civilian groups for ambushes, etc.) caused civilian deaths, not the way in which weapons were used.
btw USA probably caused more civilian deaths than the vietcong and NVA. Which is probably why many villagers turned on USA. USA should have learned from the British guerilla war campaigns and the importance of winning the hearts and minds of natives in such wars.
Oh I'm not agreeing with that, it just seems to be the accepted rule. I can easily think of comparable situations of innocent death that were considered much worse when the innocents were citizens of the perpetrator's country. Who knows why.
From what I know (admittedly not that much) the Kurds were killed simply to test out weapons, as a result of centuries-long persecution and hatred of Kurds by surrounding ethnicities. But it could be more complicated than that, I'm sure. I'm certainly no authority on this one...
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Dux Limitis
But Saddam and his fellow accused are gaining popularity with this trial too.
Those guys are turning the Arab world against the US with lines like "We are Arabs".
The ICC made a big mistake with the Milosevic trial.
They made huge accusations that were very difficult to prove.
At least this trial has learned from this mistake, that's why they aren't accusing Saddam for his biggest crime, but one that at least can be proven.
ps: about the gassing of his "own" people.
Don't forget the US was applauding Saddam for it at the time becasue it stopped Iran from invading.
The same logic about killing innocent people to prevent a worst scenario should apply
Primicerius
No, i believe you are thinking of him gassing the iranians, which the WESTERN WORLD (not just the us) applauded him because he was more moderate than the iranians. As for when people talk about gassing his own people, they mean gassing the kurds after gulf storm 1
for-profit death machine.
Dux Limitis
Sorry, you got some facts mixed up.
During the Iraq/Iran war the Kurds allied with Iran, and it was then (near the end of the Iraq/Iran war) when Saddam gassed the Kurds.
After Gulf War 1 Saddam gassed Shiites because they tried to overthrow him.
Saddam is Sunni.
Kurds and Shiites live in his country but they are NOT his "own people".
Saddam never gassed his own people, he only gassed people who tried to overthrow him. (not that this makes it any better, I just hate incorrect statements)
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Put him on trial in an international court.Then what do you propose be done with the wretch?
The ICC would be the best option but the US would never allow it (they think it's pure evil and have plans to invade Holland if they ever put an American on trial there).
So the next best option I think is a court created by all Arab states. (maybe this would even be the best option).
Last edited by Erik; October 20, 2005 at 08:19 PM.
Honnête Homme.
depends on wether you still consider Iraq to be a nation, or think it should be split
btw, point one against the organizers of the trials :/
member 3519
I suspect another consideration may have been to pick a subject that does not give Saddam an excuse to (threaten to) reveal information that could prove embarrassing to friendly states and their administrations.
Muizer
For my name is Legion
Not only a sham, but a bloody one. A lawyer getting killed because they knew who he was while the judges are just faces...
In the long run, we are all dead - John Maynard Keynes
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Holding patronage upon the historical tvrcopolier and former patron of the once fallen, risen from the ashes and again fallen RvsskiSoldat
Dux Limitis
It's a show.
Only a international court can give a fair trial to a former head of state.
Anybody who overthrows a state wil find the former regime illegal.
This is a court where the accuser wrote the lawbooks, and the jury is made up by victims.
Saddam is guilty, don't get me wrong.
But this trial can never objectively prove this.
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