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Thread: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

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  1. #1

    Default Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    In an earlier thread I asked for input as to what the differences are between the two arrow types. A lot of folks provided some excellent feeback on how they incorporate the two types into their battle tactics. However, definitive data was still lacking. So I decided to do a little work. I ran some tests using bowman firing flaming and non-flaming arrows against lightly armored and heavily armored units.

    The first series of tests pitted a Helmingas unit against an Uruk Reaver unit. I picked the Reaver unit because it has fairly light armor and does not carry a shield. I ran the custom battle and recorded the number of casualties at intervals during the battle. Though I had identified the Uruks as being the defenders, they still charged toward the Helmingas. This was actually a good thing as it showed arrow effectiveness at various ranges. So the greater the elapsed time, the closer the Uruks got. The numbers in the no-flame/flame columns are the cumulative number of casualties. I ran each test three times so the casualty numbers you see here are an average.

    Here are the results of the first test against a lightly armored unit.

    Elapsed Time........No Flame....Flame

    60 sec..........................37............ 41

    90 sec..........................77.............67

    Contact (~105 sec).....112.............93


    In the second test, I wanted to see how the different arrow types performed against armored units. So this time I tested the Helmingas against Uruk Infantry with their heavy armor and shields.

    Here are the results of the second test against a heavily armored unit.

    Elapsed Time........No Flame....Flame

    60 sec..........................9..............16

    90 sec.........................17.............25

    Contact (~105 sec)......27.............36



    Conclusions:

    There is a significant difference between the number of casualties inflicted by flaming arrows vs. non-flaming arrows, depending on the armor rating of the target. It is clear that non-flaming arrows are more effective against lightly armored units. The initial advantage of the flaming arrows is probably due to the fact that both types fire their first volley at the same time. After that the increased rate of fire of non-flaming arrows is an advantage.

    Neither arrow does particularly well against heavily armored targets, though ultimately flaming arrows will inflict about 25% more casualties than non-flaming arrows.

    At no point was the morale of the attacker shaken, with the exception of the no-flame vs. light armor test, in which the Uruks started to waver right after contact.

    Obviously different archer types will have different levels of success, against different unit types, but I think this is a good reference for when it is better to use one type of arrow over another.

    Further, range matters. Against a lightly armored target, a Helmingas unit firing non-flame arrows has a hit rate of ~37 per minute. At the middle ranges it jumps to ~80 hits per minute, and at point blank range it is ~140 hits per minute. Though it should be noted that in my tests, the Uruks crossed the point blank range zone in about 15 seconds.

    (Also note, since The Uruks made contact before the Helmingas could expend all of their arrows ending the test at that point, I was not able to detemine the basic accuracy of each arrow type. So this test only shows a comparison in killing ability between the two types within the span of a 2.5 to 3-minute battle.)

    I hope you all find this useful.
    Last edited by Toshach; May 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #2
    MasterBigAb's Avatar Valar Morghulis
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Very nice to know that and to get a test
    Have a +rep


  3. #3

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    This is excellent. Thanks for doing the controlled test and sharing!

  4. #4
    Hero of the West's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    I always thought of the fire non-fire as very obvious actually, so the results shouldn't be to suprising right?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    i had been looking forward to something like this for a looong time, but was too bored to do it myself. +rep from me for your nerve

  6. #6
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Good stuff! Thanks for that. +rep. It's always interesting to see some numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toshach View Post
    The initial advantage of the flaming arrows is probably due to the fact that both types fire their first volley at the same time. After that the increased rate of fire of non-flaming arrows is an advantage.
    Also, fire is less accurate, so now that there are less targets to hit (after first volley) the chances of hitting something are even lower.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Great testing! At least now there's some definite results. +rep
    "It is easier to find ten men willing to die than to find one willing to endure pain with patience"
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  8. #8
    Ozzmosis's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Good experiment, but there are a myriad of different methods which could produce different results. If, for example, you had the archers continuosly firing against an enemy engaged with another melee unit. You could do this three times and make an average of the archer kills (total kills minus kills by melee unit), if you wanted a real experiment. There are many ways to test. eg, only long range tests, only close range, etc

  9. #9

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    always wanted to know... very informative - im gonna shoot your with my +rep cannon
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    The crownless again shall be king.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Thank you all.

    You won't want to read too much into the results of this test, but the two points that I got from it were:

    1) don't bother shooting arrows at armored units unless there are no unarmored targets, and if you do, shoot at armored targets, use fire arrows, and
    2) use non fire arrows against unarmored units.

    But remember lads, it's not etched in stone. As Captain Barbossa said, "It's really more of a guideline."

    Thanks again.

  11. #11
    Knox213's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    riiiiighhhht..... Non-fire arrows FTW.

    Why?

    I was playing a few battles on very hard. To find it's actually not really hard. To save ammo i just turned off fire arrows to find the enemy was weakened / killed. Archer's behide heavy infantry infront. Killed 768 Uruk's.

    When i only had 400 men. We only lost since the heavy infantry routed.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Well done Toshach

  13. #13
    axnsan's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Inspired by this, I did some further test.

    Helmingas vs Uruk Reavers, unable to move, maximum shooting range, kills/timespan test

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Helmingas vs Uruk Reavers, unable to move, IN YOUR FACE, kills/timespan test

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    vs Berserkers, unable to move, max range, kill/timespan

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    vs Berserkers, unable to move, IN YOUR FACE, kill/timespan

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    vs Uruk-hai Infantry, unable to move, max range, kill/timespan

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    vs Uruk-hai Infantry, unable to move, IN YOUR FACE, kill/timespan

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    So far, in every case normal arrows do more damage
    The only instance where flaming will do better is when you have all the time in the world to shoot them, since they probably do more dmg/arrow.
    Last edited by axnsan; May 16, 2010 at 06:48 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Interesting results you got their Axnsan--especially against the Uruk Infantry. My test showed fire arrows to be more effective than non-fire arrows against the Uruk Infantry. I wonder what effect target movement has on the results. Also, since they require more than one hit to kill a heavily armored unit, the effect of non-fire arrows compounds over time. In other words because my test ended at the moment of melee contact, many surviving Uruks may have been weakened, and had the test gone on longer would have succumbed from a single hit. I see something similar when fighting trolls. They hold up for the longest time, and then after taking many hits succumb pretty quickly.

    Anyhow, I would infer from your test that in seige situations where the targets are relatively static, go with the non-fire arrows.

    Nice work my man.

  15. #15
    Gimli's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Thanks for the info man, i've been waiting for someone to do this. I would, but im to lazy to do the work. +100 for the hard work, +100 for the information= 1,000,000 points for Toshach!!! Lol, ima bad counter.. Heheheheh

  16. #16

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    you forgot to add one key factor: fire arrows take longer to load.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Quote Originally Posted by eugenioso View Post
    you forgot to add one key factor: fire arrows take longer to load.
    How does that not factor? I'd have thought it was shown when the Helmingas and Uruk-hai were very close to eachother, so misses would minimal.

  18. #18
    axnsan's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    Quote Originally Posted by eugenioso View Post
    you forgot to add one key factor: fire arrows take longer to load.
    That's why I didn't test the amount of kills/arrows shot.

  19. #19
    Mikail Mengsk's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    I think Arxsan's tests are more accurate about sheer damage and kill-ratio because of the immobility of the target. But a test against moving target it's needed to test different accuracy between fire and non-fire, so i think the two test series completes each other.
    It's only after you have lost everything, that you are free to do anything.

  20. #20
    Mivix's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Flaming vs Non-Flaming Arrows Test Results

    nice test

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