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  1. #1
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    Default New Indian Census to Include Caste

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    Census controversy shows caste politics still counts in India

    MATT WADE IN NOIDA, INDIA

    May 15, 2010 Glory... Kumari Mayawati at a ceremony in New Delhi in 2007 in front of statues of herself and the Dalit heroes B.R. Ambedkar and Kanshi Ram. Photo: AFP

    They were once pushed to the margins, condemned to the filthiest jobs. But for many Dalits - previously the Untouchables of the Hindu caste system - times have changed.
    Perhaps no one symbolises this better than the ''Dalit Queen'', Kumari Mayawati, who has been Chief Minister of India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, for three years.
    A hallmark of Mayawati's reign has been her passion for building statues to honour Dalit political leaders, herself included. The latest - a row of towering lower-caste heroes covered from head to toe in blue material and built at a cost of more than $80 million - stands on the banks of the River Yamuna at Noida, a booming high-tech business hub 20 kilometres south-east of New Delhi.

    It is estimated Mayawati has spent at least $300 million on monuments to Dalit leaders in Uttar Pradesh, an impoverished state of 180 million. There are about 20,000 statues of the great Dalit leader B. R. Ambedkar dotted across the state, most of them commissioned by Mayawati.
    She rejects criticism of her statue-building frenzy, saying the statues are an inspiration for low-caste people who have been repressed and excluded from power for a millennium.
    Badri Narayan Tiwari, a specialist in caste politics at the G. B. Pant Institute of Social Sciences, in Allahabad, says the statues are a strategy to build ''respect'' for Dalit caste identity through visuals and stories.
    The influence of caste in India was underscored again last week when the Finance Minister, Pranab Mukherjee, announced the government would require Hindus to record their caste in the colossal 10-yearly national census now under way. The last time caste numbers were counted was in 1931, when the British ruled the subcontinent.
    The governing Congress Party - which has resisted counting caste in the census for decades - has changed its position in an apparent effort to please the caste-based parties that now wield great influence in national and regional politics.
    The success of Mayawati, who has risen to power in the Hindi heartland with the passionate support of Dalits, illustrates the importance caste has in modern Indian politics. Her main rival for power in Uttar Pradesh is a party that draws its support from a large and powerful caste called the Yadavs.
    ''Caste has been there in Indian politics for a very long time but it's becoming more explicit now,'' says a Delhi University political analyst, Mahesh Rangarajan.
    Tiwari says government attempts to breakdown caste barriers have helped eradicate social disadvantage but, at the same time, reinforced the role of caste in politics.
    ''The Indian state, which is working to dilute the caste system, is also strengthening caste identity,'' he says.
    Caste assigns Hindus a place in the social hierarchy based on hereditary groups originally formed around occupations. . The system has four broad groups or varnas: Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (merchants and farmers) and Sudras (manual workers). Each caste stratum has a complex web of ''subcastes'' - about 6000 in all - that vary across regions.
    The title Dalit describes a cluster of subcastes at the very bottom of the hierarchy. Mahatma Gandhi challenged the poor treatment of this group and called them ''Harijans'', children of God.
    Discrimination on the basis of caste is banned by the Indian constitution and low castes benefit from social programs and affirmative action. This includes quotas for government jobs, university courses and even parliamentary seats.
    Even so, caste prejudice remains pervasive despite rapid social and economic change. A recent study found that having a low-caste surname significantly reduced the chances of being called for a job interview.
    The widespread aversion to inter-caste marriage is highlighted each Sunday, when newspapers carry pages of advertisements by parents seeking an appropriate spouse for their son or daughter. Most of these ''matrimonials'' are grouped by caste and subcaste and many make it clear that those lower in the hierarchy need not respond.
    The decision to count caste in the census has triggered vigorous debate about the role of caste in politics and society.
    Supporters argue a proper count will give reliable data on groups getting state benefits and help the government target affirmative action measures better. Modern estimates of caste numbers in India rely on the last official tally, now 80 years out of date.
    However, critics warn the count could inflame social tensions and further entrench caste politics. It may also open a Pandora's box of political demands from powerful caste groups emboldened by official figures. The inclusion of the caste question in the census has been pushed by political leaders from the so-called ''other backward castes'', in the hope they can win more government benefits for their constituents.
    ''There are genuine apprehensions that this could lead to more agitation and conflict,'' says Rangarajan.
    Pratap Bhanu Mehta, the president of the Centre for Policy Research, in Delhi, believes counting caste in the census trashes fundamental principles of Indian democracy and will make it more difficult to rid the country of ancient prejudices and hierarchies.
    ''At one stroke, it trivialises all that modern India has stood for,'' he wrote in the Indian Express, ''and condemns it to the tyranny of an insidious kind of identity politics.''


    source:http://www.smh.com.au/world/census-c...0514-v4e0.html

    i'm of 2 minds about this; the caste system has been a part of indian traditional society for so long-almost 2 millenia- and integral to india's cultural heritage, while at the same time, it creates social barriers between indian hindus.

    while it's good that the census seeks accuracy in finally recognizing the elephant in the room, questions must also be raised about caste discrimination.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Caste is still a huge issue in India. Sadly, until India get's past it, it will never truly become a modern nation.

    And I can see why they would do this, in order for government benefits, reserved positions in universities/government offices, etc, but this could potentially further entrench the role of caste in Indian political affairs.

  3. #3

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    What a stupid religion Hinduism is.


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  4. #4

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    What a stupid religion Hinduism is.
    Is caste based on the religion? I always thought it was a cultural thing.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Is caste based on the religion? I always thought it was a cultural thing.
    Sadly I know very little about Indian culture so Wiki had to suffice.. It says that there's no "universally accepted theory" for the origin of the caste system, which I take to mean.. who the feck knows?

    Regardless it does seem very much Indian since Muslims and Christians have been a part of it as well.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Is caste based on the religion? I always thought it was a cultural thing.
    Indian culture and Indian religion are one and the same. Caste is primarily a Hindu thing though, but Hinduism is not a set codex like Christianity, it is just the way Indian culture is manifested.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  7. #7

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Is caste based on the religion? I always thought it was a cultural thing.
    Hinduism is more of a culture than religion.

    Besides, culture and religion go hand in hand.

    I don't think so since Muslims also have a caste system of sorts
    Islam was a newcomer. All its followers were converts from other religions and you cant just replace a millennia old tradition so simply.

    Even in Indonesia hundreds of years after the population have become Muslims, they still go to sacred places of pagan roots to ask for favors from mountain or sea gods and goddesses.
    Last edited by jankren; May 15, 2010 at 02:44 PM.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Hinduism is more of a culture than religion.

    Besides, culture and religion go hand in hand.
    some would claim that the same could go for Islam

    Islam was a newcomer. All its followers were converts from other religions and you cant just replace a millennia old tradition so simply.
    This is true, and a substantial proportion of Muslims in South Asia are probably descended from converts including those who claim foreign descent, this is particularly the case where Islam mixed with indigneous traditions more freely such as in Bengal and Sind.

    Even in Indonesia hundreds of years after the population have become Muslims, they still go to sacred places of pagan roots to ask for favors from mountain or sea gods and goddesses.
    well Indonesia has a Hindu population right?

    Quote Originally Posted by pspguy123 View Post
    Muslims in South Asia don't really have a system that is comparable to the one that is used by the Hindus. Usually, its' just the dalits and such that converted to Islam never really improved their socio-economic status, and never gained the dignity and self-respect that they should have, so they are confined to the bottom of Society. No one really keeps them down there, as in Hinduism.
    they do have a caste system of sorts, where Muslims who converted from Hinduism are deemed inferior to those who claim foreign ancestry

    IIRC, the caste system was used to subdue the local Indian populations when the Aryans invaded India thousands of years ago. The local Indians became the lower castes, and the light skinned invaders took the place at the top of society in the upper tier castes.
    probably

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Did Muslims escape the caste system via conversion, or did they just become another caste themselves?
    they formed a sort of pseudo-caste system of their own with various groups claiming foreign descent (such as Arab,Persian,Turkic etc) and viewing the descendants of converts from Hinduism as inferiors.
    Last edited by Babur; May 15, 2010 at 06:04 PM.
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  9. #9
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Isnt there a bunch of affirmative action policies in India now, basically reversing everything on its face and punishing people for being Brahmin? Retarded.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    To an outsider of a different culture is difficult to comment as judge it...

  11. #11

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Census controversy shows caste politics still counts in India

    MATT WADE IN NOIDA, INDIA

    May 15, 2010 Glory... Kumari Mayawati at a ceremony in New Delhi in 2007 in front of statues of herself and the Dalit heroes B.R. Ambedkar and Kanshi Ram. Photo: AFP

    They were once pushed to the margins, condemned to the filthiest jobs. But for many Dalits - previously the Untouchables of the Hindu caste system - times have changed.
    Perhaps no one symbolises this better than the ''Dalit Queen'', Kumari Mayawati, who has been Chief Minister of India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, for three years.
    A hallmark of Mayawati's reign has been her passion for building statues to honour Dalit political leaders, herself included. The latest - a row of towering lower-caste heroes covered from head to toe in blue material and built at a cost of more than $80 million - stands on the banks of the River Yamuna at Noida, a booming high-tech business hub 20 kilometres south-east of New Delhi.

    It is estimated Mayawati has spent at least $300 million on monuments to Dalit leaders in Uttar Pradesh, an impoverished state of 180 million. There are about 20,000 statues of the great Dalit leader B. R. Ambedkar dotted across the state, most of them commissioned by Mayawati.
    She rejects criticism of her statue-building frenzy, saying the statues are an inspiration for low-caste people who have been repressed and excluded from power for a millennium.
    Badri Narayan Tiwari, a specialist in caste politics at the G. B. Pant Institute of Social Sciences, in Allahabad, says the statues are a strategy to build ''respect'' for Dalit caste identity through visuals and stories.
    The influence of caste in India was underscored again last week when the Finance Minister, Pranab Mukherjee, announced the government would require Hindus to record their caste in the colossal 10-yearly national census now under way. The last time caste numbers were counted was in 1931, when the British ruled the subcontinent.
    The governing Congress Party - which has resisted counting caste in the census for decades - has changed its position in an apparent effort to please the caste-based parties that now wield great influence in national and regional politics.
    The success of Mayawati, who has risen to power in the Hindi heartland with the passionate support of Dalits, illustrates the importance caste has in modern Indian politics. Her main rival for power in Uttar Pradesh is a party that draws its support from a large and powerful caste called the Yadavs.
    ''Caste has been there in Indian politics for a very long time but it's becoming more explicit now,'' says a Delhi University political analyst, Mahesh Rangarajan.
    Tiwari says government attempts to breakdown caste barriers have helped eradicate social disadvantage but, at the same time, reinforced the role of caste in politics.
    ''The Indian state, which is working to dilute the caste system, is also strengthening caste identity,'' he says.
    Caste assigns Hindus a place in the social hierarchy based on hereditary groups originally formed around occupations. . The system has four broad groups or varnas: Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (merchants and farmers) and Sudras (manual workers). Each caste stratum has a complex web of ''subcastes'' - about 6000 in all - that vary across regions.
    The title Dalit describes a cluster of subcastes at the very bottom of the hierarchy. Mahatma Gandhi challenged the poor treatment of this group and called them ''Harijans'', children of God.
    Discrimination on the basis of caste is banned by the Indian constitution and low castes benefit from social programs and affirmative action. This includes quotas for government jobs, university courses and even parliamentary seats.
    Even so, caste prejudice remains pervasive despite rapid social and economic change. A recent study found that having a low-caste surname significantly reduced the chances of being called for a job interview.
    The widespread aversion to inter-caste marriage is highlighted each Sunday, when newspapers carry pages of advertisements by parents seeking an appropriate spouse for their son or daughter. Most of these ''matrimonials'' are grouped by caste and subcaste and many make it clear that those lower in the hierarchy need not respond.
    The decision to count caste in the census has triggered vigorous debate about the role of caste in politics and society.
    Supporters argue a proper count will give reliable data on groups getting state benefits and help the government target affirmative action measures better. Modern estimates of caste numbers in India rely on the last official tally, now 80 years out of date.
    However, critics warn the count could inflame social tensions and further entrench caste politics. It may also open a Pandora's box of political demands from powerful caste groups emboldened by official figures. The inclusion of the caste question in the census has been pushed by political leaders from the so-called ''other backward castes'', in the hope they can win more government benefits for their constituents.
    ''There are genuine apprehensions that this could lead to more agitation and conflict,'' says Rangarajan.
    Pratap Bhanu Mehta, the president of the Centre for Policy Research, in Delhi, believes counting caste in the census trashes fundamental principles of Indian democracy and will make it more difficult to rid the country of ancient prejudices and hierarchies.
    ''At one stroke, it trivialises all that modern India has stood for,'' he wrote in the Indian Express, ''and condemns it to the tyranny of an insidious kind of identity politics.''


    source:http://www.smh.com.au/world/census-c...0514-v4e0.html

    i'm of 2 minds about this; the caste system has been a part of indian traditional society for so long-almost 2 millenia- and integral to india's cultural heritage, while at the same time, it creates social barriers between indian hindus.

    while it's good that the census seeks accuracy in finally recognizing the elephant in the room, questions must also be raised about caste discrimination.
    Integral to its ing cultural heritage? That's like defending the slave trade in Britain or the US!

    Seriously, the caste system is ing barbarism that the Indians themselves have been trying to crush for half a century. I can see how such demography might be useful to a well-intentioned unit of Government, but in prejudiced hands, of which in regards to this there remains a vast proportion, it could be used to really punish lesser favoured castes. Besides, it won't be accurate. People will lie.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Integral to its ing cultural heritage? That's like defending the slave trade in Britain or the US!

    Seriously, the caste system is ing barbarism that the Indians themselves have been trying to crush for half a century. I can see how such demography might be useful to a well-intentioned unit of Government, but in prejudiced hands, of which in regards to this there remains a vast proportion, it could be used to really punish lesser favoured castes. Besides, it won't be accurate. People will lie.
    this says it all. I don't get why the west/developed countries over look this.
    fear is helluva drug
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    Have you had your daily dose of fear yet? craziii
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    not a fan of Mayawati, because she spent quite a bit of money last year building statues of herself, but I am against the caste system.It's just that she gives dalits a bad name.

    Quote Originally Posted by pspguy123 View Post
    Caste is still a huge issue in India. Sadly, until India get's past it, it will never truly become a modern nation.

    And I can see why they would do this, in order for government benefits, reserved positions in universities/government offices, etc, but this could potentially further entrench the role of caste in Indian political affairs.
    Ironically some Muslims of South Asia have also adopted aspects of the caste system, by emphasising their foreign descent and generally tend to marry within their own community to preserve this.They considering lower class Muslims to be mere converts from Hinduism and thus to be looked down upon

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    Isnt there a bunch of affirmative action policies in India now, basically reversing everything on its face and punishing people for being Brahmin? Retarded.
    not 100% sure about that

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    What a stupid religion Hinduism is.
    and that constitutes an argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrik View Post
    To an outsider of a different culture is difficult to comment as judge it...
    perhaps

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Integral to its ing cultural heritage? That's like defending the slave trade in Britain or the US!

    Seriously, the caste system is ing barbarism that the Indians themselves have been trying to crush for half a century. I can see how such demography might be useful to a well-intentioned unit of Government, but in prejudiced hands, of which in regards to this there remains a vast proportion, it could be used to really punish lesser favoured castes. Besides, it won't be accurate. People will lie.
    indeed it is barbaric
    Last edited by Babur; May 15, 2010 at 03:28 AM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    They do the same thing in american with our byzantine race categories, (white, black, Asian, white Hispanic, black Hispanic, and other) The entire point of civil rights and egalitarianism is to eliminate such distinctions, not to highlight them in order that past wrongs can be righted, that is an abject appeal to the hereditary principle, its also a disgustingly Christian appeal to the idea of original sin, the idea that people who look like a historically privileged class should feel guilty just for being born that way.

    I see this as the Indian and Hindu equivalent of that. I take the opposite view, India should see itself as a nation of Indians, not of different castes. It should also see itself as secular and not Hindu. We need to dispense with all sectarian categories and labels. In the end, we are all human beings, and we all have the same fundamental nature.
    "Midway upon the journey of our life
    I found myself within a forest dark,
    For the straightforward pathway had been lost." Dante Alighieri

  15. #15
    Caliph's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Another step in eradicating the inherent evils of the caste system

  16. #16

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Caste =/= race

  17. #17

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Caste =/= race
    It may as well, it was based on a social delineation denoted by birth and skin color. Besides racial categories don't really exist outside of social constructs, much like caste distinctions.
    "Midway upon the journey of our life
    I found myself within a forest dark,
    For the straightforward pathway had been lost." Dante Alighieri

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Sometimes traditions become outdated and must be gotten rid of. The caste system has become a weakness of Indian society. While it still exists, traditional Hindus have little reason to complain about defectors who convert to Christianity or Islam.

  19. #19

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Or become Maoists.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: New Indian Census to Include Caste

    Because saying "you're all a bunch of ing barbarians and you need to fix your " is regrettably bad for business.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

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