Advice request - Javelines

[Mithrane]

I've played this and prior Total War games for a very long time. I've become quite skilled at nearly every facet of the game. One thing which I have yet to master, though, is proper use of javeline infantry.

They usually have AMAZING ranged attacks. Some even have good melee abilities. However, their range is just slightly farther than an infantry unit's charge distance. Thus, they rarely get more than one or two shots off before something is on them.

I've tried using skirmish mode, but nothing in this game really does that well enough to bother. I've tried using them behind infantry, but this reduces their effective range and limits them to usually a single shot, which is NOT worth their cost, much less their spot in an army. I've found limited use of them in concert with pikes where-by the pikes remain in formation and the javelines are "within" the pikes. This gives them a chance to shoot without being mauled until well into a protracted melee.

My issue is this... I've found many factions which have javelines very early in the game, where they could be quite strong. I've found few factions which get late-game worthy javelines, where they need to be much more powerful to compete for a spot in armies. I've found no factions which get pikes early enough to work in concert with the early-game javelines. I've found few factions which get pikes AND javelines at all.

So... my request is this. I am looking for some tactics which make better use of these javelines in early-mid game without having to search for the very rare pike merc. units. This is for Stainless Steel 6.1 and for Vanilla.

Thank you in advance.

[KngGilgamesh]

Flanking, Hammer and Anvil, etc.
They are useful to disrupt enemy formation, break morale, to decimate the foe.
Mounted Javelins are better at these roles but are fewer that foot ones.

[Mithrane]

Flanking, Hammer and Anvil, etc.
They are useful to disrupt enemy formation, break morale, to decimate the foe.
Mounted Javelins are better at these roles but are fewer that foot ones.

Please be a little more specific than vague and general strategic moves such as "Flanking". For example... to flank, one would have to be able to GET to their flanks without being engaged by the enemy or cavalry, which is nearly impossible to do on the move with an infantry unit. To use in hammer+anvil, one would be firing on units already engaged with one's own, thus having "friendly fire", which is VERY bad for morale. Are you thinking of some method of these that I am neglecting to consider?

Also... I have no need for assistance with mounted javelines. Those are merely short-range horse archers which are my specialty. I need assistance with the infantry javelines, as their particular strengths can only be used, to my knowledge, in very limited circumstances which are rare and hard to orchestrate.

On re-reading this, it came off in a far more unfriendly manner than I had intended. I welcome any and all advice or even just conversation on the topic. I was just trying to direct more precisely to my particular questions / querries. Thank you for whatever help you or anyone else is willing to provide.

[Incomitatus]

Ambush!

Ok less vague... Javelins are great for hiding in trees on the flank and then flanking the enemy after they've engaged your visible units.

In an open field battle, the problem you seem to be having is how to keep the enemy cavalry off of your flanking infantry... if that problem were solved, it sounds like you'd be able to utilize your javelins. So, I'll stop scratching my head trying to figure out how you played RTW without mastering javelins , and give you some ideas for solving this problem.

I find a lot of the tactical advice to be backwards around here since it usually goes like this: neutralize enemy missile, neutralize enemy cavalry, break enemy infantry. But as any student of ancient and medieval tactics should know, in most situations the enemy missile corps is not the most dangerous part of their army - rather, the most dangerous part is whatever is the most mobile: shock cavalry and missile cavalry (unless they are English and 9/10 of their army are longbowmen!). The reason being, once the enemy infantry engages your line, enemy missile troops have the same liabilities yours do... they can't intervene in the fight without causing major casualties. Unless they flank, but you aren't going to let that happen, are you?

The first priority of any general should be to negate the enemy's ability to dictate the terms of engagement - take away their mobility! As soon as possible, your missile corps should focus their fire on the enemy cavalry. Your cavalry should, in most cases but not all, be deployed to the wings, and should move forward to engage any cavalry they have on the wings, and then (or if they don't have cavalry on the wings) should take up station on the enemy flank and rear to intercept any cavalry trying to flank your line.

At that point, the coast should be clear to flank the enemy with either javelins or melee light infantry - which should have spent the battle up to that point, safely stationed behind your front line waiting for the right moment to move out on the run. Use your cavalry to cover their advance - in this case you are NOT using your cavalry as the hammer, but only as anti-cavalry forces, flank defenders, and rout chasers. The javelins are your hammer.

Another point - used correctly the high attack and high lethality of the javelins should cause enough casualties that they start a chain-rout... meaning you may only get one or two shots off per battle. But if those one or two shots break the whole enemy army, aren't they worth it?

Fundamentally, using javelins are an alternative to using cavalry to deliver the hammer-blow. If you prefer knights, use them instead. There really isn't need for both tactics in a given battle.

Anyway, best of luck to you! This is just the beginning of javelin tactics, of course, but start simple!

[Viking Prince]

I also find the early javelins are useful on the walls in defense. Well, at least better than peasant archers unless you need the flaming arrows.

[JusTheory]

I use them more for their ability to pull the enemy's main body out of line or force a preemptive charge. I often see the computer charge one unit while turning their sides, and sometimes their backs, to other skirmish infantry. I will keep them on loose formation rush the enemy infantry line, which usually pushes their front line of archers/crossbows behind their main line. They also tempt the enemy cavalry into charging them which frees up the flanks for my cavalry to get around behind their main body. Then I engage with my infantry line and hammer their rear. Play on words fully intended.

[Player96]

I dont really use javelins until the timurids arrive... javelins can give a slightly higher damage to their elephants than ordinary missiles...

[KnightOfPortugal]

Flanks and rear. They usually do it better than archers when you outflank the enemy.

[VersionLangley]

I think javelin work best if the enemies are in a big blob....because a thin line of engagement render the javelin difficult to target the right ppl
if you can get them in a blob....such as by align all your men in thick ranks fighting blocks
position your javelin not too close to your line or they won't fire at all

flanking is best done with jav cav...but then charging inf with the jav cav is better than shooting inf slowly

[Turtle Hammer]

In all honesty, the only times I've found javelin infantry genuinely useful is when defending sieges, but this they're really good for. Alughmhavers are the best javelinists I think, they can handle themselves up close and are a pain in the rear for armoured units assaulting your walls.

[spH3RiCal]

In open battles you can attack the flanks of the enemy while you hold them with heavy infantry.

I always use them when defending a city but not on the walls - for some reason most of the times having javelin units on walls you get only 5-6 men shooting at the enemy.. So i place them behind spear units defending the gates. Usually I put 3 spear units at the gates - one across and two at both sides of it - forming an "open square". When the gates go down the enemy charges through and fill the empty space of the square squeezing his units in there, my spearmen hold them steady while the javeliners shoot at them. The result is max casualties because of the high density of units in the square. Be aware not to stick the javeliners to the flanks of the spearmen or the front javelins will kill the spearmen in front of them.

[El Cid99]

i use heaps of javs coz i love spain and portugal (vanilla) my best advice would be to use them when the enemy is pinned, either against your line inf, or preferably in a big blob. Good examples are in a bridge battle, or defending a gate/breach in the wall. A particularly amazing battle was me (Portugal) vs the AI (Spain). it was a bridge battle; one for which i was hopelessly unprepared. i had one unit of DFKs, three of lustinian javs, and my general. they had a full stack of pavise x-bows, and chiv. knights, both mounted and unmounted. They also had a brilliant general. they cane streaming across the bridge, and my DFKs quickly turned into a concave "U" shape. However, despite their huge defense, the chiv knights fell victim to massed javs, and soon routed, despite being professionals. i then charged my entire force across the bridge to sweep away their xbows, and the Battle of Toledo Bridge was won for the Portuguese