Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Kolokotrones weapons?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Kolokotrones's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Racine, Wisconsin. In the Central United States
    Posts
    123

    Default Kolokotrones weapons?

    Here is a picture of the weapons used by Theodoros Kolokotrones.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0-1843%29..JPG

    I was wondering what the Greeks described his swords as. It seems to me that they very much appear to be Shamshirs, but that would be the epitome of irony. Since the shamshir is a Persian sword in origin, and Kolokotrones contributed to the revival of Hellenism, which won legendary fame in resisting the Persians. I simply find it strange that a weapon from Persia would end up in the hands of a Greek Revolutionary. Could someone perhaps explain how this could have occurred?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    When did greek guerillias in the 19th century fight against Persia? That power was located on the opposite end of the osman empire.

    Btw, the sabres could just as good be an turkish Kilij, a much more likely explanation given the 400 years of turkish domination, geographical distances and cultural intermingling between greece and the osman empire.
    Neutral to the teeth.
    “'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'”
    G.K. Chesterton

  3. #3
    Kolokotrones's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Racine, Wisconsin. In the Central United States
    Posts
    123

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    When did greek guerillias in the 19th century fight against Persia? That power was located on the opposite end of the osman empire.

    Btw, the sabres could just as good be an turkish Kilij, a much more likely explanation given the 400 years of turkish domination, geographical distances and cultural intermingling between greece and the osman empire.
    I didn't say 19th century. I said Hellenism gained fame because of the Ancient Greeks legendary resistance to the Achemaenid Empire.

    They don't appear to be Kilijs, and I could definitely see Turkish/Persian/Arabic sword designs pervading Greece because Greece was under Turkish rule. But it still seems incredibly ironic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephialtes View Post
    Remember that at these times the Greeks were easterners. They have been under the Ottomans for almost 400 years, it is only natural that the Revolutionaries used similar eastern type weapons. And I am pretty sure the Kolokotrones wasn't educated enough to think that far. (Combining the sword he used with the Aechemenid Empire)
    This seems quite reasonable. Perhaps he wasn't even aware of any Achemaenid Empire.
    Last edited by Kolokotrones; May 14, 2010 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolokotrones View Post
    This seems quite reasonable. Perhaps he wasn't even aware of any Achemaenid Empire.
    I found a translation in another forum of the speech Kolokotronis delivered at Pnyx at the age of 68. He recounts the history of Greeks throughout the ages and the events of the Revolution, as he perceives them, in front of an audience of schoolchildren:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    My children!

    On this land, that I walk today, men wise have walked and conversed in the old times, men with which I am not worthy of comparison, not even capable of reaching their trails. I wanted to see you my children, in the great glory of our ancestors, and I have come to say everything I observed during the time of struggle and before as well as afterwards; and on this we shall make conclusions for your future hapiness, even if God is the only one who knows the future. And for the old days whatever knowledge they accomplished, and glory and honour they had amongst the other nations of their time, whatever heroes, generals and politicians they had, for all this every day your teachers are telling you. I am not adequate. I can only say that they were wise and that from here the other nations took and borrowed their wisdom.

    On this land, that we live in, used to live old Greeks, from who we decend and got this name (Hellenes). They differed in religion, because they bowed before wood and stone. Afterwards Christ came and all nations believed in his Gospel and stopped worshiping idols. He didnt take with him wise and refined men but simple people, villagers and fishermen and with the help of the Holy Ghost they learned all languages of the world, who, even if they had to face opposition and kings and tyrrants that chased them, noone could cause them harm. They founded the Belief.

    The old Greeks, our ancestors, fell in dissension and started getting at each other's throats, and thats how Romans first and other barbarians later got the chance to subdue them. Afterwards the Muslims came and tried everything they could to force our people to change their faith. They cut off the tongues of many people, but even so it was impossible to do. One lost his tongue and the other would do the sign of the cross on his chest. When the sultan saw this, he appointed a viceroy and gave him the authorities/power of the church.He and the rest of the people did whatever the sultan commanded. Afterwards the potentates came everywhere. The third class, the merchants and educated people, the best part of the citizens, not being able to suffer the occupation fled, the educated took the ideal of Greece and moved from Greece and thus the people deprived from the media of refinement, fell in horrible state, which worsened day by day; because if someone amongst the people existed with little education, he had luck and privileges or was dragged by the European merchant as his helper or became an educated help for the potentate. And some not able to cope suffering from the tyrrany of the Turk and seeing the glory and the pleasures that they enjoyed, they lost their faith converting to Islam. And in every way, the people starved and got poorer.

    In this unhappy situation, some of the educated fugitives, translated and sent books to Greece, and in these people we owe gratitude, because none of the people received the common education, but read these books and saw who were our ancestors, the deeds of Themistocles, Aristeides and other many of our ancients and saw in which situation we were then. Thereafter, it came into our minds to immitate them and become happier. And thus we created and developed the Hetaireia (The Philike Hetaireia, a secret organisation formed by Greeks abroad to pave the way for the revolution).

    When we decided for the Revolution, we did not take into consideration how many we were or how much weaponry we had, neither the fact that Turks held the castles and the cities nor any of our rational minded said ''Why are you going to fight with wheat merchant ships'', but like rain fell upon all of us the desire of freedom, and all, the common people and the potentates and the captains and the educated ones and the merchants, small and big, we all agreed to this cause and made the Revolution.

    In our first year, we had unity and we all acted in unison. One went to war, his brother would bring wood, his wife would make bread, his child would carry the bread and weaponry to the battlefield and if this unity held two more years we would' ve taken Thessaly and Macedonia and maybe we would ve reached Contantinople. Thats how much we scared off the Turks, whenever they heard of Greeks they fled miles away. One hundred Greeks would make five thousand of them run and one ship an entire armada...

    I, my children, unfortunetly because of these circumstances, have remained uneducated and for this I ask for your forgiveness, because I do not talk like your teachers. I told you what I saw, heard and learned, so that you may benefit from the bygones and know the sad effects of dissent, from which you should turn away from, and strive to unite. Do not encumber us anymore. Our work and time has passed. And the days of our generation, which paved the way, will be almost over. The daylight of our lives will be followed by death's darkness, for as in the day of Holy Spirits, night will be followed by tomorrow's day. It falls upon you to fix this country and enrich these lands that we freed; and for that to happen, you have to have the foundations of the society, unity, religion, educated King and rational freedom.

    I end my speech. Long live our King Otto! Long live our wise teachers! Long live Greek youth! ''

    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; May 15, 2010 at 09:37 AM.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

  5. #5
    Kolokotrones's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Racine, Wisconsin. In the Central United States
    Posts
    123

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    I found a translation in another forum of the speech Kolokotronis delivered at Pnyx at the age of 68. He recounts the history of Greeks throughout the ages and the events of the Revolution, as he perceives them, in front of an audience of schoolchildren:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    My children!

    On this land, that I walk today, men wise have walked and conversed in the old times, men with which I am not worthy of comparison, not even capable of reaching their trails. I wanted to see you my children, in the great glory of our ancestors, and I have come to say everything I observed during the time of struggle and before as well as afterwards; and on this we shall make conclusions for your future hapiness, even if God is the only one who knows the future. And for the old days whatever knowledge they accomplished, and glory and honour they had amongst the other nations of their time, whatever heroes, generals and politicians they had, for all this every day your teachers are telling you. I am not adequate. I can only say that they were wise and that from here the other nations took and borrowed their wisdom.

    On this land, that we live in, used to live old Greeks, from who we decend and got this name (Hellenes). They differed in religion, because they bowed before wood and stone. Afterwards Christ came and all nations believed in his Gospel and stopped worshiping idols. He didnt take with him wise and refined men but simple people, villagers and fishermen and with the help of the Holy Ghost they learned all languages of the world, who, even if they had to face opposition and kings and tyrrants that chased them, noone could cause them harm. They founded the Belief.

    The old Greeks, our ancestors, fell in dissension and started getting at each other's throats, and thats how Romans first and other barbarians later got the chance to subdue them. Afterwards the Muslims came and tried everything they could to force our people to change their faith. They cut off the tongues of many people, but even so it was impossible to do. One lost his tongue and the other would do the sign of the cross on his chest. When the sultan saw this, he appointed a viceroy and gave him the authorities/power of the church.He and the rest of the people did whatever the sultan commanded. Afterwards the potentates came everywhere. The third class, the merchants and educated people, the best part of the citizens, not being able to suffer the occupation fled, the educated took the ideal of Greece and moved from Greece and thus the people deprived from the media of refinement, fell in horrible state, which worsened day by day; because if someone amongst the people existed with little education, he had luck and privileges or was dragged by the European merchant as his helper or became an educated help for the potentate. And some not able to cope suffering from the tyrrany of the Turk and seeing the glory and the pleasures that they enjoyed, they lost their faith converting to Islam. And in every way, the people starved and got poorer.

    In this unhappy situation, some of the educated fugitives, translated and sent books to Greece, and in these people we owe gratitude, because none of the people received the common education, but read these books and saw who were our ancestors, the deeds of Themistocles, Aristeides and other many of our ancients and saw in which situation we were then. Thereafter, it came into our minds to immitate them and become happier. And thus we created and developed the Hetaireia (The Philike Hetaireia, a secret organisation formed by Greeks abroad to pave the way for the revolution).

    When we decided for the Revolution, we did not take into consideration how many we were or how much weaponry we had, neither the fact that Turks held the castles and the cities nor any of our rational minded said ''Why are you going to fight with wheat merchant ships'', but like rain fell upon all of us the desire of freedom, and all, the common people and the potentates and the captains and the educated ones and the merchants, small and big, we all agreed to this cause and made the Revolution.

    In our first year, we had unity and we all acted in unison. One went to war, his brother would bring wood, his wife would make bread, his child would carry the bread and weaponry to the battlefield and if this unity held two more years we would' ve taken Thessaly and Macedonia and maybe we would ve reached Contantinople. Thats how much we scared off the Turks, whenever they heard of Greeks they fled miles away. One hundred Greeks would make five thousand of them run and one ship an entire armada...

    I, my children, unfortunetly because of these circumstances, have remained uneducated and for this I ask for your forgiveness, because I do not talk like your teachers. I told you what I saw, heard and learned, so that you may benefit from the bygones and know the sad effects of dissent, from which you should turn away from, and strive to unite. Do not encumber us anymore. Our work and time has passed. And the days of our generation, which paved the way, will be almost over. The daylight of our lives will be followed by death's darkness, for as in the day of Holy Spirits, night will be followed by tomorrow's day. It falls upon you to fix this country and enrich these lands that we freed; and for that to happen, you have to have the foundations of the society, unity, religion, educated King and rational freedom.

    I end my speech. Long live our King Otto! Long live our wise teachers! Long live Greek youth! ''

    That's a fantastic speech. So clearly he knew some of Greece's ancient glory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Not an expert on the fine differences of oriental sabre forms, but the hilt looks similar to kilij examples I've seen, and the bladeform is obscured by the scabard, but maybe you have more information in that aspect than me.
    Well the Kilij, the Saif, and the Talwar are all based off the Shamshir to begin with, so it would closely resemble the Persian weapon. The one on the right I believe is clearly a shamshir given the crossguard, the shape of the handle and the width of the blade. The one of the left however, is significantly wider, and the handle is slightly different. Perhaps that is a Kilij. I'm no expert on Middle-Eastern swords either, but based on what pictures I've seen, that would be my conclusion. Though I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Kolokotrones; May 15, 2010 at 01:53 PM.

  6. #6
    Praepositus
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    athens
    Posts
    5,840

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolokotrones View Post
    That's a fantastic speech. So clearly he knew some of Greece's ancient glory.



    Well the Kilij, the Saif, and the Talwar are all based off the Shamshir to begin with, so it would closely resemble the Persian weapon. The one on the right I believe is clearly a shamshir given the crossguard, the shape of the handle and the width of the blade. The one of the left however, is significantly wider, and the handle is slightly different. Perhaps that is a Kilij. I'm no expert on Middle-Eastern swords either, but based on what pictures I've seen, that would be my conclusion. Though I could be wrong.

    Your suprise and what you find ironic has no meaning

    Kolokotronis Had English helmet and armor ottoman swords for some albanian fustanella and kariofilli was an aorienta construction on western barrels.

    and modern greek army use german rifle and Usa personal equipment .

    What do you excpect to use hoplo an dory Even ancient greeks were influenced by orientals.

    It suprise me that you got suprised after all Kolokotronis spoke a language
    Latin Turk Albanian Slav mixture

  7. #7
    Ephialtes's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Thessaloniki, Greece (Hometown: Trikala)
    Posts
    587

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    Remember that at these times the Greeks were easterners. They have been under the Ottomans for almost 400 years, it is only natural that the Revolutionaries used similar eastern type weapons. And I am pretty sure that Kolokotrones wasn't educated enough to think that far. (Combining the sword he used with the Aechemenid Empire)
    Last edited by Ephialtes; May 15, 2010 at 05:42 PM.





  8. #8

    Default Re: Kolokotrones weapons?

    They don't appear to be Kilijs, and I could definitely see Turkish/Persian/Arabic sword designs pervading Greece because Greece was under Turkish rule. But it still seems incredibly ironic.
    Not an expert on the fine differences of oriental sabre forms, but the hilt looks similar to kilij examples I've seen, and the bladeform is obscured by the scabard, but maybe you have more information in that aspect than me.
    Neutral to the teeth.
    “'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'”
    G.K. Chesterton

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •