Dealing with the big fortresses

[Loki_999]

I'm talking about Isengard, Barad-Dûr, etc. The ones with multiple layers of walls, with the gates offset so there is no easy path to the center of the cities/fortresses. Especially those with moats that wind around the city so you practically have to follow the path of gates to get through.

Due to the garrison scripts I always try and attack the same turn as I siege, which works fine in most situations as long as I have at least 1 ballista or mangonel with me. However, I tried attacking both the aforementioned cities like this and had real problems. By the way, playing as SE.

The first time against Barad-Dûr my siege equipment got burned when i tried to move it into position to attack the second gate.

The second time I was a little more clever and instead of going through the gate went through the wall in front of the second gate, giving me a clear line. However, the mangonel ran out of ammo after the second gate and the ballistae I had were not much use for walls. Eventually I ran out of time. Saying that though I inflicted massive losses on the enemy (approx 1500) with only 300 losses on my side mainly which were spearmen who were holding the gates/gaps as I took them. So a positive result to a certain extent, but I still don't have the city.

Now need to make the third attempt... but what is the best approach? Ideally, I can't wait long for reinforcements so would like to go with my current army, mainly archers (6 generals, 8 archer types), 2 units of spearmen who are practically depleted, 3 ballistae, 1 mangonel.

I appreciate the army composition could be better for sieging.... within striking distance is another army which is more mixed so can bring in more spearmen, but no mangonels.

What do you guys recommend? I see several options.

1) Back off for now, concentrate on attacking easier cities, form a new army with more mangonels and spearmen/swordsmen and then try again later.

2) As the city has already been reduced to half strength and walls damaged, just attack again and this time hope to get through before the timer runs out. Use same tactic as before going through walls instead of gates?

3) Lay siege for 1 turn and bring up reinforcements, build 6 ladders for quick scaling of walls. Accept that the garrison script is going to kick in and that i'm going to be facing lots of units.

And finally...

In general, which tactic do you think works best when attacking these types of cities, especially when playing as elves?

[zorro59]

I think you should try to use ladders (especially if you have elite units) as they will own the enemy fast. Then get a ballista firing on the secondlevel. Most orcs by now are dead so you can go for a frontal assault now
Btw if you decide to attack the walls the best tactic is to make 2holes(with 2 balistas)so the enemy is going to have to defend both of them while you concentrate your main force on one of them, defeat them, then attack the others from behind.

[el Cid]

As Elves it is best to either take the walls or wait your enemy out and butcher them.

[jản]

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a few tips for a successful siege of fortresses and citadels:

> attack from every side (that means during deployment phase place units in front of every side wall and
gates your deployment zone allows - in this case the enemy will place units there too - only if you place
just one single unit of cavalry in front of one of the side gates the enemy will place some archers and infantry
there too - a spreaded enemy army gives you a little advantage since they have to move to the actual battle
happening too - so they get exhausted too - i hope you get me)

> i guess you are playing Gondor? so use the trebuchets (maybe this is what you meant with mangonels - mangonels don't exist in TATW - at least not in vanilla)
trebuchets are able to attack and destroy the first, the second and sometime the third wall defense from outside the actual settlement and outside the reach of archers and ballista towers - with them you can shoot yourself a straight way to the piaza

> use spies to open the gates before a battle (for a citadel with more than 5 enemy units and a enemy family member in it you need at least 3 spies inside it to open the gates successfully

> try to avoid the burning oil at the gatehouse (use ladders / wait for a clear gatehouse, because once you captures the gatehouse or no enemy units are near it burning oil will not be dropped out anymore) and if it is not possible to avoid it make sure you only have unimportant and only a few units under it

> for battle tactics inside a fortress you should rely on everything except cavalry - it is very rare that cavalry can perform a charge inside of a settlement - only on some piazas it is possible - and sometimes it works even in straight streets when you have 10 or less cavalry units in one unit

> your main and first goal of a battle inside a settlement or fortress (and of course on normal battle fields) should be to go for the enemy general - especially when it is a star achieved family member - the traits of them always give their units a morale and fighting boost - especially when they are a evil faction - once you killed the general the enemy units will rout much faster /// to go for the general first locate him (the star symbol on the minimap) and choose the best counter unit for it - in most cases you do a good job with one or two spearunits and some archers - but the best way is to try to get a catapult or ballista in firing range to the enemy general and try to burn him with fire ammo

> when you attack the walls by units using ladders and siege towers try to attack one wall segment (between two towers) with two ladder/siegetower units - one on the leftmost and one rightmost side to empocket the enemy unit(s) on that wall - when they have no way out when you are to the left and right of them they will rout way faster

> use the narrow street for your advantage: place 2 or 3 lines of spearmen in lines facing the enemy - behind them place javelin and archer units firing at will and with fire arrows on near by enemy units - and then use catapults inside the fortress firing from behind the spearmen-protection-line with fire ammo

catapults are the most powerful and effective weapons inside a settlement if they are well protected

> try to prevent enemy units from reaching the piaza - routing enemies will get back to battle once they reached it and what is more important - enemy units fighting on the piaza will never rout - they will fight to the last man standing

> use the enemy walls for you advantage - that means place archer on it to increase their firing range - but make sure they always shoot directly on the enemy not in indirect volleys - this really helps a lot, from every wall - best thing that you can do is once you reached the enemy piaza place your archers on the walls around it and defeat the enemy from there - protect the entrances to the walls with infantry - but in the most cases the enemy will stand still on the piaza and wait unitl all of their units are killed and burned by your fire arrows.

> one last thing - if you have to face enemy trolls inside a settlements forget about fighting them inside it - try to make them running out in the open field and beat them with two units of cavalry - to do that only use one unit of a fast cavalry to get inside the settlement once every (really every) other unit is waiting outside and attack in the direction of the trolls - trolls are very aggressive and fast moving - so they definitely will go for your singel unit of cavalry - wait till they reach your cavalry units and than move your horses back out of the settlement - the trolls will follow you even outside - sometimes it takes more than one attempts (if they are nearer to the center of the settlement) but it worked in many cases for me

inside a settlement trolls can only be beaten effectively by siege engines like ballistas or catapults - sure other strong infantry can beat them but with heavy losses - and you will need many units for the other enemy orcs and scum - and dont even think about facing trolls on walls - it is nearly impossible to kill even one unit up on there

by the way - normal trolls (not olog hai but) mountain and cave trolls are kinda allergic to arrows - normal arrows - no fire arrows - i manage to kill half a stack of trolls with three or four units of archers once they even reach my lines - but of course only in an open battlefield fight - but even inside a settlement archers can do good job against trolls if they are not those assy olog hai - these fellas can only be beaten effectively by at least two units of cavalry outside a settlement


i hope this helps you

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[Loki_999]

Spies!!! Why didnt i think of spies??? I use them loads in vanilla, just not used them in TATW. Thanks for the thought.

As for Trolls/OlogHai .... strangely enough there were some. The AI positioned them on the wall... so i knocked down the wall. That was fun.

Mangonels... no, not trebuchets, im playing as SE like i said. The smaller catapults that the SE get.

[glassakias]

i ALWAYS wait and siege. the ai takes all the time given and 12 turns later there are less than half units left alive in the fortress. in the case i am attacked by a reinforcements army, i either fight defence (and usually win) or retreat, defeat the reinforcements and then reattack. in that case, no garisson script is set off, because all slots are full with depleted units

[Magic Man]

Waiting them out isn't always that fun, though.



Why not built a buttload of rams/ladders?

Use the siege weapons to knock down a few of the gates then when they run out of ammo, rush them with the other stuff.

[Michael X]

Well, that's the point! They shouldn't fall easily!

Anyway. You could atack from different sides. Divide your army. Place the siege weapons to break the walls in one place with a part of the army and place ladders to another one. Use many battering rams to break the gates. Some of them will be burned but if you move them at the same time, then the towers won't be able to burn both.

[Ragnarök]

you could turn off the time limit..

[Loki_999]

you could turn off the time limit..

IIRC you can't do this with a game in progress.... and besides, the time limit can be useful at times when you are defending against a superior force... although winning like that does feel a bit like cheating.

in that case, no garrison script is set off, because all slots are full with depleted units

Ah! Now that is useful information.

[Ragnarök]

IIRC you can't do this with a game in progress.... and besides, the time limit can be useful at times when you are defending against a superior force... although winning like that does feel a bit like cheating.

I was thinking of "dealing with the big fortresses" in general. It could be a house rule to play without a time limit because the AI is unable to rush, even if the time is running out.. well, as you have mentioned the time is often too short to take multiple walls, even for the player.

[Seleukos_I.]

IIRC you can't do this with a game in progress.... and besides, the time limit can be useful at times when you are defending against a superior force... although winning like that does feel a bit like cheating.

You actually can.

[KingLeonidas300]

Why do.you have six units of generals??

[Loki_999]

Why do.you have six units of generals??

LOL... why not?

Partially because it is Barad-Dur... it felt as though a few generals should be there to party.
Partially because its a combined army made up of remnants from other armies.
Partially because i can only recruit really good units a long way away from Mordor and they take time to arrive at the front.
Partially because generals self-regenerate their forces and have decent stats.

In vanilla I once made a rampaging full stack of generals just for the laugh. Useless at sieges but awesome for field battles, especially if micromanaged.

TATW SE generals though are soooo much better than vanilla HC generals and so much more useful.

[KingLeonidas300]

LOL... why not?

Partially because it is Barad-Dur... it felt as though a few generals should be there to party.
Partially because its a combined army made up of remnants from other armies.
Partially because i can only recruit really good units a long way away from Mordor and they take time to arrive at the front.
Partially because generals self-regenerate their forces and have decent stats.

In vanilla I once made a rampaging full stack of generals just for the laugh. Useless at sieges but awesome for field battles, especially if micromanaged.

TATW SE generals though are soooo much better than vanilla HC generals and so much more useful.

Lol came at me wit a whole essay I'm noy gonna bother

[Loki_999]

Lol came at me wit a whole essay I'm noy gonna bother

Do not meddle in the affairs of TATW players, because they are unsubtle and quick to provide long winded explanations!

[eugenioso]

i like to siege them. then the enemy has 2 choices: sally out of the castle and die, or wait till they get a relief army from the outside, in which case i still kill them!

[axnsan]

Bring more trebuchets.

[Neptune7]

I was so mad when my one catapult ran out of ammo when my High Elves assaulted the second wall of one of Isenguard's fotresses..It was 90% destroyed too...I had to go back and get another one, and was successfull on my second attack..............

[jản]

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and still i don't get what you mean with Mangonels.
here you can see the full roster of the silvan elves - no mangonels only ballistas and catapults.

mangonels actually are units from M2TW - but this are mangonels and they do this.
but they only are part of the kingdoms expansion and some other mods. but not for TATW.

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