Spartan Hoplites

[Bonapartist]

I still haven't seen the dollar value attached to these guys, but I definitely did not enjoy fighting them. It kind of reminded me of playing MTW 1 back in the day when a general would just have way too many traits affecting his healthpoints and defense, so that one guy took 500 people and 5 minutes to kill. I kind of had the same thing happen with the spartans. I understand they're supposed to be hardened warriors in the best kit, but it was pretty absurd. They were being mobbed mostly by principes w/ armor and weapon upgrades, hundreds, from all directions, and it still took an absurd amount of time. Seems like they may be overpowered. It was like fighting an elephant or something, literally, from vanilla RTW.

Also, what is the significance of the "heavy" and "light" weapon traits? I noticed that a bunch of the higher level Romani troops (the samnite guys) seem to have inferior stats to the cheaper, lower upkeep Principes, and that I don't have access to any heavier, more elite infantry. Am I wrong about this? Is a reform going to trigger?

Really, really enjoying this mod, by the way. I've taken Carthage, northern Italy, Sicily and am now moving onto the choicest parts of Greece. This really is a fantastic mod in most every regard, and I'd like to also compliment the people in charge of the music, particularly the more understated stuff.

[athanaric]

I understand they're supposed to be hardened warriors in the best kit, but it was pretty absurd. They were being mobbed mostly by principes w/ armor and weapon upgrades, hundreds, from all directions, and it still took an absurd amount of time. Seems like they may be overpowered. It was like fighting an elephant or something, literally, from vanilla RTW.

The special thing about them is their extraordinary stamina, which, due to the nature of their life long training, is equal to much lighter units. This means they can hold out in a tight spot for quite a long time without losing morale, attack, or defence points. Which is exactly what they did in real life.

Experience points are also significant. Greek units (from a fully developed city) are recruited with at least one point of experience by default, unlike Roman units. This is due to the effects of the Gymnasion (the Greeks were Martial Arts fanatics). Experience is unrealistically strong in RTW, so it may distort the outcome of a battle somewhat.

The key to defeating them is to have your Romans lob all their pila, preferrably in the Spartans' backs, and attack those crazy buggers with armour piercing melee weapons. For example, you could hire Bastarnae Mercenaries or use a big force of Illyrian pirates. The more costly, but most honourable way is to engage them with Pedites Extraordinarii, who have AP swords.

Also, what is the significance of the "heavy" and "light" weapon traits?

It's not significant in EB. More like a marker for the AI, to have it recruit diverse armies (which still doesn't work most of the tiime).

I noticed that a bunch of the higher level Romani troops (the samnite guys) seem to have inferior stats to the cheaper, lower upkeep Principes,

Native Roman infantry are very cheap for their abilities. OTOH, their cavalry is more expensive than that of factions with a greater equestrian tradition. This is a factional trait that was implemented on purpose.
You also need to look at the full stats of a unit when evaluating it, not just the unit card.

and that I don't have access to any heavier, more elite infantry. Am I wrong about this? Is a reform going to trigger?

In your starting provinces, you should have access to Triarii (speaking of OP...), and Extraordinarii, the latter in a mounted and an infantry version, at the higher MIC tiers. The two Extraordinarii units are most definitely elite units.

Of course, you can only build high level factional MICs with an Italian Homeland Government (Type I).

[Bonapartist]

Some really great info there, thanks alot.

My problem with the Spartans is that it was just a ridiculous amount of time to kill 60 men, who had even broken formation.

Since I first started EB I've been pretty Slinger crazy, the Republican Ascencis (sp?) make up over 1/2 of my army, with infantry serving to protect them. These units have fantastic anti-armor ability and even when I had like 8 full 60 man units raining down an ungodly amount of stones on them, it was a snails pace to kill them. I don't care if you're part of an insane warrior culture and spend all your time drilling, you are going to a human-shaped flesh rag by the time that sort of volley is over. Most of my slingers were literally out of ammunition before the Spartans were like 1/3 strength.

[athanaric]

That's because Accensi are the weakest slingers in the game (in fact, the weakest unit), and Spartan Hoplites have big shields to protect them against missiles. Shield counts twice against missile, so 14 (body armour) +4(shield) +4 = 22, which is more than regular cataphracts have.

Slinger spam is kinda frowned upon (because it's unhistorical), and you may get better results using more javelin units instead, anyway.

[Biggieboy]

That's because Accensi are the weakest slingers in the game (in fact, the weakest unit), and Spartan Hoplites have big shields to protect them against missiles. Shield counts twice against missile, so 14 (body armour) +4(shield) +4 = 22, which is more than regular cataphracts have.

Slinger spam is kinda frowned upon (because it's unhistorical), and you may get better results using more javelin units instead, anyway.

Just throw some javelins in their back. Remember: if you can't fight them, stab them from behind!
Also something I've noticed: the Epilektoi Hoplitai actually have the same attack, and 1 def point more! the only difference is that the spartans have better stamina. Isn't that interesting?

[athanaric]

Just throw some javelins in their back. Remember: if you can't fight them, stab them from behind!

That is also the way for dealing with phalanxes.

Also something I've noticed: the Epilektoi Hoplitai actually have the same attack, and 1 def point more! the only difference is that the spartans have better stamina. Isn't that interesting?

The Spartans also have one point of morale more.


About the siege weapons: some factions (including the Lusotannan) can build Greek siege weaponry at their regional MIC. Romans can't, for some reason. I'm afraid you'll have to wait for the Marian Reforms. After that, you can recruit them almost anywhere.

[goro]

Just throw some javelins in their back. Remember: if you can't fight them, stab them from behind!
Also something I've noticed: the Epilektoi Hoplitai actually have the same attack, and 1 def point more! the only difference is that the spartans have better stamina. Isn't that interesting?

Even if the spartans were the best warriors at the time epilektoi means chosen.so it is pretty ovbvious why the have similar stas

[Bonapartist]

Ha, I can see why people might look down upon it, as mobbing them is undoubtedly effective and soon becomes a defining feature of your tactics.

As long as you're being the most helpful and informative person ever, Althanaric, how do I get my hands on some siege weapons?

Thanks!

[torongill]

The Romani get siege engines after the Marian reforms.

The way I kill elite units like the Spartans is surround them and attack them with javelins in the back, preferably pila, because they're AP, but others will work as well. Then pin them from the front and attack them from the rear with a good melee unit. You might get good results by charging them first with good cavalry. Since you will most likely be fighting in Greece, you can recruit Thracian peltastas and Thracian medium horse - both units are mercenary, but the thracian peltastas have AP weapons with great lethality, combined with shields, good armor and good defensive skill.