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  1. #1
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Europe counter-attacks

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    European stock markets close to gains on euro aid deal

    AFP - Global stock markets soared on Monday after the EU and IMF agreed a near one-trillion-dollar rescue package for the eurozone, stemming a crisis that threatened to derail the global economic recovery.

    Many European markets posted record single-day gains, among them Spain, Portugal and Italy which investors last week left reeling amid concerns these countries could fall by the debt wayside like Greece.

    The euro too rose very sharply early Monday but by late afternoon the unit was slipping back as players took profits and waited to see if the eurozone nations would really stick by the currency's fiscal rules this time around.

    Analysts said the deal buys the time to put public finances in order but eurozone states now have to deliver or it could unravel dangerously, threatening an even worse crisis that could plunge the global economy back into recession.

    In London, the benchmark FTSE 100 index of leading shares jumped 5.16 percent, in Paris the CAC 40 soared 9.66 percent and in Frankfurt the DAX gained 5.30 percent.

    Milan was up 11.28 percent, Madrid 14.43 percent and Lisbon 10.73 percent, all record daily gains.

    Meanwhile in Greece, the epicentre for the debt and budget crisis which has brought the eurozone to its knees, stocks raced to gains of 9.13 percent.

    The interest rate earned on benchmark Greek 10-year bonds nearly halved on news of the deal, tumbling from punitive levels of above 12 percent on Friday to 6.717 percent late Monday -- still very high but a massive change for a market which usually moves in tiny, incremental steps.

    On Wall Street, the blue-chip Dow Jones Industrial Average gained about four percent by around 1600 GMT after turbulence last week that saw the index plummet almost 1,000 points or nine percent briefly on Thursday.

    Dealers said the European Union and International Monetary Fund deal worth 750 billion euros agreed early Monday to resolve the debt and budget deficit crisis in Europe provided a clear lead after months of uncertainty.

    Following the announcement the US Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank and central banks in Japan, Britain, Canada and Switzerland said they would intervene to ensure there was plenty of liquidity on the money markets.

    "Time will tell if this coordinated action is successful. For now, it is spurring a massive relief trade based on the notion that it might just be the answer," said Patrick O'Hare, analyst at Briefing.com.

    "Anyway, while there is a sense of relief in the market about the monetary force being applied, there will be a fiscal price to pay for this bailout for those who need it," he cautioned.

    Analysts at Charles Schwab & Co. said the rescue package on top of a 110-billion-euro EU-IMF bailout for Greece eased eurozone debt contagion fears and preserved the outlook for the continuation of the global recovery.

    "Equity markets certainly started the week with a flourish, although after an abysmal end to last week and the release of news regarding a robust bailout package ... it's hardly a surprise that the major indices have all posted sizable gains," said Anthony Grech, head of research at traders IG Index.

    The euro rebounded above 1.30 dollars in early trade from 1.2755 dollars in New York late Friday but slipped back steadily in the afternoon to 1.2861 dollars.

    Dealers said the forex markets wanted to see what the follow up to the EU-IMF package would be, it being essential for the euro that governments stick to the eurozone's fiscal rules and get their debt and deficits back under control quickly.

    Markets last week suffered huge sell-offs amid uncertainty over whether Greece could implement deeply unpopular austerity measures and stave off bankruptcy.

    Fears that a possible debt default by Greece could hit the world's financial system in the same way the collapse of US investment banking giant Lehman Brothers did two years ago had sent shares and the euro plunging.

    Concerns had also mounted that the Greek rescue deal would fail to shield Spain and Portugal from crippling market pressures, sending the euro down at one point to 1.2523 dollars in New York, its lowest since March 2009.

    Asian markets also hailed the EU deal, with Tokyo stocks closing up 1.60 percent, Hong Kong jumping 2.54 percent and Sydney rising 2.66 percent.

    Spoiler Tags please--Darth Red
    http://www.france24.com/en/20100510-...cks-fx-economy

    It's for some moments like that I feel proud to be European, It's a big step toward a better integration and a better European solidarity, the best prof against all eurosepticks who wanted only the dissolution of the euro.

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    Vive l'Europe!
    Last edited by Darth Red; May 10, 2010 at 01:18 PM.

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  2. #2
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    I thought this was about reinforcements to Pakistan. Let the Germans go in and sort the mess out.

  3. #3
    Musthavename's Avatar Bunneh Ressurection
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    So instead of addressing all the problems of a shared currency, it's fine just to blow a ton of cash on bailing these guys out? Right...

    Markets only care about the short term, and they still won't want to lend to Greece. As far as they're concerned, French and German debt and such is safe, and that's all they care for.
    Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of the day.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Musthavename View Post
    So instead of addressing all the problems of a shared currency
    I hope they don't get rid of it whatever they do. I don't know what the big deal is about slight sovereignety losses.

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    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    I hope they don't get rid of it whatever they do. I don't know what the big deal is about slight sovereignety losses.
    It has nothing to do with sovereignity and everything to do with countries (like greece) being unable to devalue their currency in order to help them pay off foreign loans. The Euro works great when times are good, but it has flaws when it gets ugly.
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  6. #6
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks



    they dont sound impressed...

  7. #7
    Musthavename's Avatar Bunneh Ressurection
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    I hope they don't get rid of it whatever they do. I don't know what the big deal is about slight sovereignety losses.
    It's not an issue of sovreignty. As it stands, European economies are interlinked but still distinctly separate. Hence, having a unified currency just isn't practical. You take away the fact that member states likely want different interest rates. You take away the ability for a member state to devalue their currency to pay debts. You expose countries to another's risk because of the shared currency. The fact that Greek debt is different from German debt kinda makes sharing a currency daft.

    If the EU was a unified federal state, the Euro would be practical. Otherwise, its not.
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    Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Hmmm. Bad government spending is going to fixed with government spending. Great logic.

    At the rate the Euro is going, it will be even worse off than the Dollar (and that will take some hard work to achieve)
    Everything the State says is a lie, everything it has is stolen.

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  9. #9
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Musthavename View Post
    It's not an issue of sovreignty. As it stands, European economies are interlinked but still distinctly separate. Hence, having a unified currency just isn't practical. You take away the fact that member states likely want different interest rates. You take away the ability for a member state to devalue their currency to pay debts. You expose countries to another's risk because of the shared currency. The fact that Greek debt is different from German debt kinda makes sharing a currency daft.

    If the EU was a unified federal state, the Euro would be practical. Otherwise, its not.
    there were people who said this before the euro was introduced.

    basically - the eu did things in the wrong order

    Even so, it doesn't take a genius to know that more measures should have been in place to stop such dramatic failures.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Why would I be proud that a desperate measure to save a single currency dragged down by broken Southern European economies that will only cost me more money?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
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    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


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    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

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  11. #11
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Just dont go asking where the $1 trillion came from eh..familiar with a printing press?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Why would I be proud that a desperate measure to save a single currency dragged down by broken Southern European economies that will only cost me more money?
    Maybe because without it you'd probably be screwed

  13. #13
    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by skag View Post
    Maybe because without it you'd probably be screwed
    I'm pretty sure the Dutch would be doing just fine without the Euro.
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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Stocks soaring like they did is better illustration of market volatility and fragility.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  15. #15
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    I don't understand how a trillion dollar loan makes one happy to be European.

    It's like TARP for countries where I guess the EU in total is now going to take on the irresponsibility of countries like Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. So where as buying up the "toxic debt" or these subprime mortgages still had about 10% default rate, you absolutely knew, in the game of probabilities, it was a timing thing. here Europe jumps in, says Greece, here's some cash. Now fix yourself.

    Has it even been addressed that Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal can fix themselves? This is a fundamental problem, not a bad product.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    What happens when the money runs out, the debt and strings attached start to catch up, the stock markets fall again, everyone blames europe, what will you do then ? Print more money at interest, increase your debt, just to get out of it ?

    The spiral of doom continues. Throwing money at debt problems will not solve anything it only delays it.

    On a lighter note, goldman sachs reported record profits since they began operating, the number of billionaires this year grew by hundreds, the gap between poor and rich got wider, yay for capitolism!
    Last edited by Martin N; May 10, 2010 at 01:18 PM.

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  17. #17
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Assuming Greece can raise the retirement age and reduce the pensions then they don't have to worry about the money running out. There may be some debt restructuring but for the most part assuming those big "IFs" things should be alright. But Spain, Portugal and Italy all have to fundamentally change. Western Europe will eventually have to change as well fundamentally but they can afford to wait for now. Again assuming their currency does collapse based on those IFs.

    Sometimes you can think of a country like a person in this incidence. Imagine owning a $500k home while being financed with an ARM ontop of a job delivering pizzas. When the rate kicks in and the exuberence can't be sustained, if someone came in and gave you a few hundred k assuming you got a well paying job and sold the house, you'd be ok.
    Last edited by JP226; May 10, 2010 at 01:33 PM.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  18. #18
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Assuming Greece can raise the retirement age and reduce the pensions then they don't have to worry about the money running out. There may be some debt restructuring but for the most part assuming those big "IFs" things should be alright. But Spain, Portugal and Italy all have to fundamentally change. Western Europe will eventually have to change as well fundamentally but they can afford to wait for now. Again assuming their currency does collapse based on those IFs.

    Sometimes you can think of a country like a person in this incidence. Imagine owning a $500k home while being financed with an ARM ontop of a job delivering pizzas. When the rate kicks in and the exuberence can't be sustained, if someone came in and gave you a few hundred k assuming you got a well paying job and sold the house, you'd be ok.
    well thats just it.

    The Greeks have been forced to institute 'austerity measures' which means taking away peoples pensions, raising taxes, slashing spending...all this outright Dictated to them by the EU and the IMF.
    All this because the EuroCrats and their EU Nationalist hordes simply will not allow their project to fall or for greece to leave.

    They cannot stand the idea of the EURO failing, so as Barroso said "We will defend the Euro, whatever it takes" while riots and civil unrest fade figuratively in and out around him.
    It left the 'Euroskeptics" in little doubt on what this "union" is all about and why it must be dismantled.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Well... how else are you going to stabilize the Euro on such short notice?

  20. #20
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
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    Default Re: Europe counter-attacks

    Personally I am proud to be Swedish. A nation with sound fiscal policies and our own currency. I am however worried about how the Eurozone bubble is going to burst. To quote Anders Borg "Sweden is an exports dependant nation. We just won't be able to sell any Scania trucks if the rest of Europe collapse"

    And some pseudo nationalistic flag waving...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Btw, how much did France contribute to the fund?

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