On behest of a friend

[Argeus the Paladin]

Someone I know is starting an alternate history scenario of sort and intends to turn it into a full-scale novel. Here are the details, having to do with a female Pharaoh and an Athenian general.

The thing is, I am quite sure Greece and Egypt's golden ages aren't contemporaneous. If I am right, could any of you help shed some light into the feasibility of this scenario?

[antaeus]

i think the term golden age is troubling... but for the sake of fiction... the two regions often had overlapping interests, but their golden ages were probably separated by more than 500 years. there were certainly plenty of opportunities for greek generals to 'hook up' with egyptian princesses...

for example during the greek golden ages from the 6th century bc till the rise of the macedonians, greeks were regular participants in the various rebellions of the egyptians against the persians in the 5th-4th centuries bc... at one point i think pericles even led an official athinean fleet (that was defeated), as well as this there were often private mercenary forces there during this period so it would be easy to invent a mercenary greek general of some sort... (they also fought for the persians and carthaginians during this period too)

however, if you're looking for greeks in the golden age of egypt... you're going to have to be looking at minoans and mycenaeans.. and there you start hitting a period where history may not be much help... at this point your writer friend could probably invent any number of greek characters and base them on any of the early travelling adventurers of homeric legend.

[cpdwane]

i think the term golden age is troubling... but for the sake of fiction... the two regions often had overlapping interests, but their golden ages were probably separated by more than 500 years. there were certainly plenty of opportunities for greek generals to 'hook up' with egyptian princesses...

for example during the greek golden ages from the 6th century bc till the rise of the macedonians, greeks were regular participants in the various rebellions of the egyptians against the persians in the 5th-4th centuries bc... at one point i think pericles even led an official athinean fleet (that was defeated), as well as this there were often private mercenary forces there during this period so it would be easy to invent a mercenary greek general of some sort... (they also fought for the persians and carthaginians during this period too)

however, if you're looking for greeks in the golden age of egypt... you're going to have to be looking at minoans and mycenaeans.. and there you start hitting a period where history may not be much help... at this point your writer friend could probably invent any number of greek characters and base them on any of the early travelling adventurers of homeric legend.

That's a pretty good, consise post. If you consider the New Kingdom Egyptians to be the golden age of Egypt, then that runs from 1500-1000bc or so, which runs roughly through the Myceanean age and into the Greek dark ages, during which nothing much happened with the Greeks. If you move the time somewhat further foward to 650bc-550bc (after which the country was invaded by Persians) you hit a perfect spot when the two civilizations meet. During that time, the Egyptian kings (of the 26th Dynasty) hired many thousands of Greek hoplites to fight for them, and many of these also founded Greek colonies in Egypt, the main one being Naukratis. Also, authorities like Herodotus would seem to suggest that Egyptian culture was still thriving, even if they were past building pyramids (the last big one they built was in 1800 bc.) So I would say that 650-550 is your perfect date, when Greaceo- Egyptian links were at their height. Greece was just at the beginning of the height of it's culture then as well.

I'd recommend your'e friend takes a look at book 2 of Herodotus' Histories, to get a good impression of Egyptian culture at that time. It's not completely accurate, but if anything it shows what a Greek would make of Egypt (he calls all of the Egyptian gods by their Greek names), plus it's our only really decent written account of Egyptian life.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

1st possibility: 6th century BC, a regional Egyptian ruler called Psammetichos hires loads of Ionian and Carian mercenaries to break from the Assyrian yoke and install himself a Pharoah. He is successful but eventually overrun by the rising power of the Persian Empire and the son of Cyrus the Great, Cambyses. For the shake of the story you can assume that among the Ionian hoplites there are some Athenians, perhaps political exiles, the two groups being ethnically related.

2nd possibility: Middle of 5th century BC, a major rebellion breaks out in Egypt, which attracts substantial Athenian support. The rebellion was led by one Inaros, who was related to the last dynasty to rule independent Egypt before the Persian conquest 60 years earlier. Inaros requested aid from Athens, which Athens happily provided—seeing an opportunity to do major damage to Persia's power and wealth, and to secure access to Egypt's inexhaustible supplies of grain. The Athenians send 200 triremes and thousands of troops to aid the rebels and set up a base inside the labyrinthine channels of the Nile Delta. Yet Artaxerxes sends Megabyzus in 445BC, who eventually quels the rebelion and completely destroys the Athenian expeditionary force in the process.

3rd possibility: A rebellion begins in the Nile Delta in 405BC and results in Egypt winning her independence from Persia and maintaining that independence for the next 60 years, until eventually being subdued by Artaxerxes III in 343 after the battle of Pelusium. The rebellion was initially led by Amyrtaeus r.404-399, the descendant of a leading figure in the Great Revolt in the middle of the 5th century, and would attract flocks of Greek mercenaries in the service of both sides - in the final battle alone Artaxerxes commanded some 15,000 of them. Some famous figures were involved too: Athenian Iphicrates for example served with satrap Pharnabazus in the 370s, Spartan king Agisilaus was hired by the rebels in the late 360s. Such a frame provides an excellent setting for the rise of an Athenian mercenary.

4rth possibility: Late Bronze Age, the Sea People have stormed through Phoenice and are ready to take on Egypt, the only civilised, wealthy and organised state still standing. Greek ships with battle hardened warriors from the recent war in Asia, who have lost their way (like Menelaus) or have been exiled upon return (like Idomeneus and Diomedes) after the sack of Troy, now arrive at the shores of Nile. Egyptian Pharoah quickly hires them as mercenaries to bolster the ranks of his army in the impending war against the invaders. Among these Greeks, or rather Danaans, rises an Athenian officer, former subordinate to king Menestheus perhaps or maybe a loyalist to the name of former king Theseus, who wants to raise money to restore his house to power when he returns home.

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

1st possibility: 6th century BC, a regional Egyptian ruler called Psammetichos hires loads of Ionian and Carian mercenaries to break from the Assyrian yoke and install himself a Pharoah. He is successful but eventually overrun by the rising power of the Persian Empire and the son of Cyrus the Great, Cambyses. For the shake of the story you can assume that among the Ionian hoplites there are some Athenians, perhaps political exiles, the two groups being ethnically related.

2nd possibility: Middle of 5th century BC, a major rebellion breaks out in Egypt, which attracts substantial Athenian support. The rebellion was led by one Inaros, who was related to the last dynasty to rule independent Egypt before the Persian conquest 60 years earlier. Inaros requested aid from Athens, which Athens happily provided—seeing an opportunity to do major damage to Persia's power and wealth, and to secure access to Egypt's inexhaustible supplies of grain. The Athenians send 200 triremes and thousands of troops to aid the rebels and set up a base inside the labyrinthine channels of the Nile Delta. Yet Artaxerxes sends Megabyzus in 445BC, who eventually quels the rebelion and completely destroys the Athenian expeditionary force in the process.

3rd possibility: A rebellion begins in the Nile Delta in 405BC and results in Egypt winning her independence from Persia and maintaining that independence for the next 60 years, until eventually being subdued by Artaxerxes III in 343 after the battle of Pelusium. The rebellion was initially led by Amyrtaeus r.404-399, the descendant of a leading figure in the Great Revolt in the middle of the 5th century, and would attract flocks of Greek mercenaries in the service of both sides - in the final battle alone Artaxerxes commanded some 15,000 of them. Some famous figures were involved too: Athenian Iphicrates for example served with satrap Pharnabazus in the 370s, Spartan king Agisilaus was hired by the rebels in the late 360s. Such a frame provides an excellent setting for the rise of an Athenian mercenary.

4rth possibility: Late Bronze Age, the Sea People have stormed through Phoenice and are ready to take on Egypt, the only civilised, wealthy and organised state still standing. Greek ships with battle hardened warriors from the recent war in Asia, who have lost their way (like Menelaus) or have been exiled upon return (like Idomeneus and Diomedes) after the sack of Troy, now arrive at the shores of Nile. Egyptian Pharoah quickly hires them as mercenaries to bolster the ranks of his army in the impending war against the invaders. Among these Greeks, or rather Danaans, rises an Athenian officer, former subordinate to king Menestheus perhaps or maybe a loyalist to the name of former king Theseus, who wants to raise money to restore his house to power when he returns home.

That happens to be one of the most believable and well thought out selection of alternate histories ive ever read man... Kudos!

Argeus could you please tell us which option your friend is going to opt for? Ive always wanted to do something similar about the celts and the 4th option seems to be rather well thought out and i might use a hybrid of two of them... also if your worried about internet plagarism i would suggest requesting the option that is going to be used being deleted

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Thanks, Fionn, but honestly no credit is due. I want to clarify that the first three scenarios are based on a firm historical background, the rebelions and the wars between Egyptians and Persians involving Greek mercs are perfectly historical, as are the names of the various leaders I cited; this is why the whole picture appears to be believable. The author's imaginations and creativity would step forth when it comes to blending an Athenian mercenary and an Egyptian princess in the setting. I would also say the fourth scenario is the most fascinating and arguably best suited for a novel, because the scantity of evidence on the reasons behind collapse of civilisation in the Late Bronze age, the identity of the Sea People and the historicity of the Trojan war, allow a lot of room for speculation, imagination, interweaving of events and artistic freedom. What we do know is that Egypt was attacked but prevailed against the invaders and that their records indicate a possible contribution of Achaean or Danaan element to the conglomeration of migrating groups the Sea people appear to be. So crafting a story involving some early Athenian hero can be reconciled with a plausible version of events.


PS: I have seen it several times around and I thought I might ask: when we say "kudos", do we mean the homeric word κύδος standing for glory? Or is it something different?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

No problem it was the 4th one that i particularily admire Ive done a fair bit of study on the topics but it never occured to me to have anything similar to that, then again my education is based primarily on the Hellens and the Romans and while i have read the Anabasis i was unaware of any large numbers of Hellenic mercenaries in use during the swansong of the Egyptian empire(i assumed the bronze men were simply crack teams of mercenaries hired to protect the Pharoahs and the leaders of the rebellions against the Achaemenids[other than the notable exceptions regarding Athens and her fleet aiding the Egyptian satrap in the 5th century and Agisilau)

As far as im aware it's always used as a method to praise someones tenacity, intellect or courage(which can mean glory in a form but glory has many modern connotations). I never studied Ancient Greek, although i did go to Athens, Corinth and Lacedaemonia last summer when i basically had to take pictures of the more rural villages names and drive like a mad man(it seems to be the done thing in Southern European countries )until we got there. My hypothesis would be it comes from the original Homeric epic, was it the Iliad or the Odyssey that it appears in for general reference, and was borrowed wholesale in Latin or perhaps it was a greek copy from byzantium that escaped the ravages of the fourth crusade or the Sejluk Caliphate and came into common usage through intellectuals using it in everyday conversation and thus worming its way into general usage.