The javelin and its decline.

[Fleischer]

Hi all,
I have a question that has been nagging me for quite some time, which I hope you can help me answer. It might not be directly related to EB, but it does concern a question that ties into the EB timeframe, I think.
To my understanding the javelin (Thrown spear in any shape/form, is what I mean with this term in this post) was a widespread and widely used weapon during EB’s timeframe. It was found almost everywhere, and skirmishers and “elites”, mounted and dismounted alike, used it.
Now, during the middle ages (Particularly during the “High Middle Ages”1000-1300 A.D.) the weapon seems to “disappear”. A wikipedia search tells me that it was still used in the Iberian Peninsula, and by the Welsh, and in the “Arab World”/”East”, but in the central European kingdoms it does seem to have “disappeared”. Now, my question is, why did it “disappear”? Considering how widespread it was, it must have been very effective and thus served a vital role on the battlefield. Was it due to a change (Or several) in battlefield tactics? A change in equipment? (This one is perhaps obvious, so the better question would be why this change occurred).
I am sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation (Or several) to this that I simply have not thought of, and that is why I ask you for help.
Thanks in advance for any potential answers!

[athanaric]

Bows were much improved over time, becoming stronger and all, and crossbows were adopted for the AP role that javelins always had. It takes less skill to fire a crossbow than to hurl a javelin or use a bow.
Then the introduction of firearms. Add to that general changes in tactics...
It seems that javelins have survived longest in some niche roles, typical of the evolution of a species or a weapon.

[Anubis88]

Well, in the middle ages the infantry became much heavier then before right? I dunno how effective a javelin would be against a fully clad Medieval Soldier wiht a broad shield.... In antiquity against poorly armed trops it would be devastating...

But than again, the Spartans did lose against a bunch of peltasts, and they were quite heavily armoured... so what do i know?

[torongill]

actually the Spartans at that battle were less armored than those at Thermopylae so javelins would have been more effective. The peltastas also attacked them from the rear. Another problem that I can think of is the appearance of the knight cavalry. See, earlier javelineers were used as light infantry and skirmishers. With the appearance of that cavalry their advantage - speed was denied.

[0N3]

They are hard to trow. Takes much less training to stab someone in the gut

[4th Regiment]

1. Medieval armies were generally no more armored that classical ones (Legionaries, hoplites, pikemen, ets etc name it). Medieval armies were not knights in shiny armor, and that shiny armor for knights had appeared in late XIV and XV c anyway...and only for very wealthy few…

2. There were lots of good archers in ancient times. Recurved and compact bow was known much before medieval times

3. Crossbow is totally different animal than javelin and require/was used in much deferent role/tactics. It very cumbersome, it takes lot of time to reload and handler require protection of other type of soldiers, usually pikemen. Also, javelins were able to be thrown over the heads of front rows, to break the enemy charge, or to panic them just before your own charge...In short, very different role to see crossbow, as its simple substitute


Answer is – massed and effective usage of javelins require good organization, drilled men, and good overall command, which was very very rare in Medieval times

[Bonapartist]

I think the first guy's point about the crossbow is probably the ticket. When you consider that the crossbow weighs under 20 pounds most likely and you can carry a huge number of bolts, and probably get almost the same penetration, as a guy carrying 3 to 6 javelins. I wouldn't be surprised if the force behind a crossbow bolt is many times that of even a heavy hurled javelin, even taking into account its far lesser mass. But then, crossbowmen are dedicated ranged troops, while javelins were often given to all flavors of troops, to diversify their armament and increase their chances. You'd THINK that medieval generals would see the value in such an inexpensive way to increase the killing power of each man, since carrying one or two would probably be so light an encumbrance.

I don't know if you played the RTW expansion, but the later Roman soldiers abandon their Pila for what are pretty much literally big, gnarly lawn darts. The switch took place because they could carry many more darts than pila, supposedly lob them farther, and do similar damage. Why that weapon didn't stick around more is a curiosity to me.

[4th Regiment]

Yes, against horses, darts are fine. Against heavy infantry with big shields, you can not do with darts

[Bonapartist]

I know "dart" sounds pretty laughable, but I don't mean the type you play at the pub. These things are freaking huge, menacing looking things with well sharpened points. I imagine a good throw would send one right through someone's shield.

[4th Regiment]

I know "dart" sounds pretty laughable, but I don't mean the type you play at the pub. These things are freaking huge, menacing looking things with well sharpened points. I imagine a good throw would send one right through someone's shield.

Yes, of course I have seen those stuff. Even if it is stuck in a shield, like crossbow bolt, for example, you can still use that shield, unlike shield will javelin inside...which was of the main purpose of usage of javelins against heavy infantry...

[Wien1938]

Actually the real issue is why skirmishing troops disappear apart from the Welsh, Irish and certain Spanish troops. What seems to happen is that missile troops increasingly fight as organised bodies rather than the traditional peltast/psiloi role. In this the bow and crossbow will predominate.
Anglo-Saxon battles seems to have focused almost entirely on shield-wall fighting. Which is why they came unstuck in rough terrain against Celtic peoples.