On welfare...

[JP226]

Has it led to more problems, or less? How can we fix it? Should we even have it?

I'm sure alot of you know my thoughts on welfare. Income redistrubution just causes problems in the grand task of resource allocation. WHat are your thoughts. I got in a pretty off topic hefty debate that I want to move here from here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...774#post620774

anyway, your thoughts...

damnit, wrong forum, can a moderator move this to the mudpit forum?

[Erik]

Humans have a strong will to survive, they wil always resort to whatever means necessary to keep alive.
When people lost their jobs and don't have any money they don't say "Well, I simply stave to death then".
What they wil do is resort to crime, and this costs more (in damages and law enforcements) than welfare does.

So from a pure financiel p.o.v. welfare is the best (cheapest) option, apart from gassing all the jobless.
And from a social p.o.v. it's the best solution too, but I know you care little about those arguments.

[Atheist Peace]

Moved to the mudpit :wink:

[Major König]

Humans have a strong will to survive, they wil always resort to whatever means necessary to keep alive.
When people lost their jobs and don't have any money they don't say "Well, I simply stave to death then".
What they wil do is resort to crime, and this costs more (in damages and law enforcements) than welfare does.

So from a pure financiel p.o.v. welfare is the best (cheapest) option, apart from gassing all the jobless.
And from a social p.o.v. it's the best solution too, but I know you care little about those arguments.

Good point. I think welfare is an alternative to crime. Without welfare, the human will to survive kicks in, and the person either gets a job somewhere, or turn criminal and causes even more problems for society.

[Poltemly]

welfare system helps to add to the crime rate folks, those on welfare do committ many crimes, read it somewhere, but i can find it

[Major König]

welfare system helps to add to the crime rate folks, those on welfare do committ many crimes, read it somewhere, but i can find it

How does it add toc crime? Without welfare, there would be more crime! If your saying that welfare adds to crime, how much crime would there be without it?

[JP226]

gracias senor

[Guderian]

Hasn't this already been discussed to death on the race thread?

[Poltemly]

welfare is a crutch, granted most people use it only as long as needed, while others ride it out and abuse the system. many people abuse the system because welfare as a system is falwed. by giving people free money they arent going to want to work harder, infact some will want to work less

[Bovril]

In an economic system which intentioally creates a class of jobless people in order to control inflation and labour costs, a welfare system is a moral imperative.

[Poltemly]

there are always jobs such as ditch diggers, toliet scrubbers, and various ways to set up your own buisness, capitalism allows for all of these, alot of people on welfare like having their asses wiped

[Erik]

there are always jobs such as ditch diggers, toliet scrubbers, and various ways to set up your own buisness, capitalism allows for all of these, alot of people on welfare like having their asses wiped

This is complete BS.
There are times when there is a shortage of work, even after all the dirty jobs are filled.
Recessions they are called: when companies fire more people than they hire because they can't sell all their products.

I would also like a reaction to my first post: that the only alternative to welfare is high crime rates.
It seems to me that the "right" have simple solutions, but they forget to look at the big picture.

[Guderian]

there are always jobs such as ditch diggers, toliet scrubbers, and various ways to set up your own buisness, capitalism allows for all of these, alot of people on welfare like having their asses wiped

Show me some evidence of this. Can you prove the majority of welfare recipients dont need welfare to live or are abusing the system?

I think you generalising based on the few cases of welfare abuse that you've seen.

[Poltemly]

there are some who get on welfare, use the system as long as the HAVE to, get off and join the workforce and become a productive member of society. there are quite a few who abuse the system, i see the effects every day as i go to school, the ghettos and the run down trailer parks. you can tell which people care, as those houses and trailers have an attempt to make them look like a home or somthing close. those are the people who dont abuse the system. those that are run down, but they have a big screen tv, a new car and crap like that, those are people who abuse the system, i have seen this all

[Erik]

there are some who get on welfare, use the system as long as the HAVE to, get off and join the workforce and become a productive member of society. there are quite a few who abuse the system, i see the effects every day as i go to school, the ghettos and the run down trailer parks. you can tell which people care, as those houses and trailers have an attempt to make them look like a home or somthing close. those are the people who dont abuse the system. those that are run down, but they have a big screen tv, a new car and crap like that, those are people who abuse the system, i have seen this all

How do you know they are on welfare?

btw: I didn;'t know American welfare is so high, that they can afford a big screen TV and a car.
This goes too far IMO (if it's true and i doubt it).
Welfare should only provide basic life necessaries, not luxeries.
In my country people on welfare are considered poor, and they need to find a job to get a nice life... and this is in "socialist Europe".

[Guderian]

hose that are run down, but they have a big screen tv, a new car and crap like that, those are people who abuse the system, i have seen this all

Mabye they just don't care how their house looks like...how do you even know if these people are on welfare?

I think only a small percentage of welfare users abuse the system. And these people usually do it illegally (i.e lying to thier case workers about their employment or status) so the problem cannot be completely blamed on the welfare system.

[EDIT] Ahh Erik you beat me to it...

[Poltemly]

it is a crutch, it show people that you can have the government wipe your ass for you

[JP226]

Humans have a strong will to survive, they wil always resort to whatever means necessary to keep alive.
When people lost their jobs and don't have any money they don't say "Well, I simply stave to death then".
What they wil do is resort to crime, and this costs more (in damages and law enforcements) than welfare does.

So from a pure financiel p.o.v. welfare is the best (cheapest) option, apart from gassing all the jobless.
And from a social p.o.v. it's the best solution too, but I know you care little about those arguments.

I didn't answer this, because it's pure nonsense.

Law enforcement will aways be needed, it is a service in demand. Why? Because there will always be some people at the bottom rungs of society who see a need to steal. Even if you gave each and every person a check to survive.

Infact I'd go even further and argue that alot of crime is caused by welfare. People see themselves as perpetually stuck at the bottom and see stealing as their only option to survive. Removing welfare will give them the ability to move up.

Once again, the welfare trap. The cost/ benefits of living on welfare are better than the cost/ benefits of finding a job. Welfare traps people and forces them into a caste system that keeps you at the bottom of the barrel. Removing these hindrances or crutches, will allow people to move up.

[Rapax]

Law enforcement will aways be needed, it is a service in demand. Why? Because there will always be some people at the bottom rungs of society who see a need to steal. Even if you gave each and every person a check to survive.

Law Enforcement will always be needed, of course, but the higher the crime rates, the more money you'll have to spend on the police in order to deal with it effectively. And if Erik's notion is correct, that less welfare equals more crime, then that is a strain on law enforcement agencies, no matter if they're always needed or not.

Infact I'd go even further and argue that alot of crime is caused by welfare. People see themselves as perpetually stuck at the bottom and see stealing as their only option to survive. Removing welfare will give them the ability to move up.

Could you please explain that statement, it doesn't make sense to me at all. Why would welfare keep them at the bottom? Someone who is happy at the bottom will have no ambitions to move up, either with welfare or without it. Do you think a bum on welfare is kept from becoming a stock broker?

Once again, the welfare trap. The cost/ benefits of living on welfare are better than the cost/ benefits of finding a job. Welfare traps people and forces them into a caste system that keeps you at the bottom of the barrel. Removing these hindrances or crutches, will allow people to move up.

That is of course assuming that there are jobs out there for these people to take and move up. It's very often a case of wishful thinking. The guy in the wheelchair won't be able to walk again just because you take the wheelchair away from him. I'm sure there are cases that "rest" on welfare, but there's plenty of people who depend on it so they don't have to live under a bridge and I'd like you to go and tell them that the money that enables them to make a basic living is a crutch for them in becoming successful. There's a little too much "american dream" fantasy in your argumentation.

[Erik]

I didn't answer this, because it's pure nonsense.

Law enforcement will aways be needed, it is a service in demand. Why? Because there will always be some people at the bottom rungs of society who see a need to steal. Even if you gave each and every person a check to survive.

I never said welfare is the end of crime.
I said without welfare you wil have MORE crime.
If you starve to death and can't find a job, what alternatives do you have other than crime?

Infact I'd go even further and argue that alot of crime is caused by welfare. People see themselves as perpetually stuck at the bottom and see stealing as their only option to survive. Removing welfare will give them the ability to move up.

Once again, the welfare trap. The cost/ benefits of living on welfare are better than the cost/ benefits of finding a job. Welfare traps people and forces them into a caste system that keeps you at the bottom of the barrel. Removing these hindrances or crutches, will allow people to move up.

Maybe this is something typical to the American welfare system, we don't have a "welfare trap" here.
Here welfare is less than minimum wage, and if you don't earn more than welfare (for example because you only work part time) you wil be supplimented so you never loose money by working.

I also fail to see the alternative.
How is letting people starve to death helping them to move up?

welfare system helps to add to the crime rate folks, those on welfare do committ many crimes, read it somewhere, but i can find it

And blacks also commit far more crimes than whites.
This doesn't mean being black causes you to commit crimes.

POVERTY is the major cause of crime.
And people on welfare are usually poor.