Editing unit stats for a different mod- advice on making combat similar to EB?

[Aenima]

This thread goes out to the EB team, to whom I need to ask a favour. As the title says I'm trying to edit the EDU of a different mod (Ruina Romae to be precise) but I need some help. I've been linked by Aradan to a page detailing what means what in each unit's stats, but I just don't know how to go about changing the units!

As of now the combat is RR is similar to that of vanilla; Romans have immense morale compared to the barbarians, and this coupled with a high lethality means that battles are over quickly and almost always result in a Roman victory. This is a far cry from the EB style battles that I love, where units rarely manage to butcher each other from head on and instead the battle relies on flanking manoeuvres.

My question is; how can I lower lethality and morale for peasants/ light/ heavy and elite units so that the distinction between each class is clear but the combat is still similar to that of EB? I want to have longer, drawn out battles but I just can't decide what kind of standard I should use for morale and such, and would probably end up giving most units 12-15 morale if I was left to my own devices! Any advice for editing the EDU is immensely appreciated, thank you!

[The10thLegion]

i dont know

[Mediolanicus]

i dont know

Then don't post...

Question

Morale: follow RTW vanilla morale
Lethality: not bound by type of unit, but by type of weapon!

If you want battle like EB, don't forget that you will also have to lower attack values of cavalry and higher their charge.

Make a back up of your EDU, chose a system based upon EB (e.g. all long swords lethality 0.225), fiddle all you want and test.

[athanaric]

In EB, the stats all follow a logical pattern.


Morale goes as follows, depending on the unit's status, training, etc.:

4 - Bush Elephants. Despite being the physically strongest unit in the game, they're the most cowardly.
6 - Scythed Chariots.
8 - lowest standard setting. Common with most low tier units (e.g. the psiloi class).
9-10 - Barbarian levies/skirmishers, also other decent levies.
11 - decent, reliable line troops, e.g. Dugundiz.
12 - good regular troops, e.g. Hoplitai.
13-14 - various high tier troops, e.g. Cataphract Archers or Helvetian Phalanx.
15 - strong professional troops, e.g. Legionaries or Germanic Pikemen. Also Drapanai, for their banzai attitude.
16-18 - Elites of all sorts and Naked Fanatics.
20-22 - Tindanotae and Gaesatae. Might count as OP.


Lethality solely depends on the weapon:

0.04 - Knife. Found on low tier ranged infantry.
0.1 - Crap sword. Generally various variants of short swords, common as secondary weapons of HAs and some Eastern infantry, but also Celtic "shortswordsmen".
0.11 - Kopis/Falcata swords. Very common and found on all kinds of units, from Lusotannan light infantry to Hippakontistai to Roman Extraordinarii elites. Due to being restricted to this type of sword, it's always coupled with an AP attribute.
0.12 - Thracian and Skordiskoi sabres.
0.124/0.125 - Only for two or three spear units. No idea why.
0.13 - Infantry spear. Also decent swords of various kinds, e.g. gladius, xiphos and some Eastern types.
0.14 - Club. Clubs are always AP.
0.15 - Overhand cavalry spear. Also Germanic pike.
0.165 - Axe, mace. These weapons are always AP.
0.17 - Sarissa.
0.2 - Elephant tusk. Also AP (if you're wondering why, run an experiment in real life...)
0.225 - long swords, generally found on Celtic-influenced mid tier swordsmen as well as Celtic, Hellenistic, and Iranian elite troops.
0.26 - Falx. Falxes are always AP.
0.285 - Rhomphaia and other two-handed sword types. See falx.
0.31 - Two-handed axe/mace/hammer. Only used by the Ordmalica, who aren't availabe in campaign. See falx.
0.33 - Underhand cavalry lances of various types. All underhand or two-handed cavalry lances are AP.
0.38 - Even nastier cavalry lances, for example the xyston.
0.4 - Kontos.
1 - all missiles. Also chariot scythes.

And perhaps some more.

[Aenima]

Thanks guys, that's awesome to have, I'll model the stats on that model.

Another question though; before the lethality setting is the 'minimum time delay' number or something, but I don't quite understand how it works. In Aradan's guide it says that it's the 'minimum time allowed between the beginning of an attacking animation and the beginning of the next one.' Now I'll ask him about it, but I'm just curious why it is that, as far as I can see, all of EB's units have '0' for this value. Wouldn't that make them fight like machine guns, ie attack super fast?

[bobbin]

No it just means that the time between attacks is governed by the length of the animation used.

[Entropy Judge]

People don't always post when they read a thread, nor does everyone who reads a thread respond immediately, nor does everyone reading a thread have the inclination to respond at all. Anyway, seeing as I'm bothering to respond at all, I might as well give it a whirl ....

Source: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

So, Cavalry. (See above list by athanaric for Lethality and other notes) Lightest off the top of my head are Myrcharn, which are unarmoured Brittanian skirmisher cavalry. They have a melee Underhanded Cavalry Lance with an Attack of 2 , and a charge of 27. Leuce Epos, a Gallic equivalent (but much better), is slightly better armoured and has the same Weapon, with 3 Attack and 30 Charge. Reidonez (Germanic Skirmisher Cavalry) have an Overhand Cavalry Spear, 9 Attack, and 27 Charge; they're roughly equal to the Leuce Epos in armour. Iberi Curisi, one of the best Medium Cavalry (in Europe, at least - don't mess with the Eastern Cavalries) has a UCL with 4 Attack and 30 Charge. Their big brothers, Iberi Lanceari, are Western Cataphract-equivalents with a 4-Attack UCL and 43 Charge. Remi Mareipos and Xosenthōzez Marxoreidondijoi, the Belgae and Germanic Heavy Cavalry, have UCL with 5 and 6 Attack (respectively), and 30 Charge. Brihentin (the "generic" version of the Belgae and Germanic Heavies) have a 4-Attack UCL with the same Charge.

Equites Extraordinarii have a 4-Attack Xyston with 34 Charge, as do the Ptolemaic Heavy Cavalry. Hetairoi have a 5-Attack Xyston with a 41 Charge. Thessalian Heavies have a 5-Attack Xyston with 34 Charge. Prodromoi and their Thracian cousins have a 3 (4 for Thracians) attack Xyston with 34 Charge. Sacred Band Cavalry have a 5-Attack Xyston with 38 Charge.

Saka Late Cataphracts and Parthain Late Elite Cataphracts have a 5-Attack Kontos with 47 Charge. Armenian Noble Cataphracts have the same Attack, but a 37 Charge. Hellenic Cataphracts and Parthian Cataphracts have 5 Attack and 44 Charge.

So, what to conclude? Well, Kontos have 5 Attack, apparently (and I'm not going to bother looking up the BG units to see what their Attacks are, but BG Brihentin have better Attack than Regular Brihentin, so meh). Charge value varies, possibly with Armour rating. Horse quality may come into it.

Xyston Attack varies from 3-5. Vaguely remembering stats makes me believe that armour and such don't come into, nor does how "heavy" the unit is affect the Charge value. I could be wrong, can't really be bothered to put much effort into it, really.

Underhand Cavalry Lance has a 2-6 Attack range, although the extremes are (IIRC) only encountered on one unit apiece. 4 seems to be the normal "biggest" value. Charge values vary a bit, although I'm thinking it has a very broad range (Unarmoured, Armoured, and Heavily Armoured).

Overhand Cavalry Spear, IIRC, all have either 15 or 27 Charge value, although IIRC again they don't charge very well at all compared to UCL units, so that shouldn't matter. They do tend to have better Attack, but ... well, see the above notes.

Couldn't really find much to indicate any broad classifications for Charge Values, though. I'd recommend against giving something both high Attack (6+) and high Charge (40+) ... Leuce Epos are one of the better Lancer Cavalry units in the game, actually, and they're on the "low end" of the Attack and Charge (and Lethality!) spectrum for Cavalry weapons. Speed and Endurance matter much more, IMO, as there isn't really a significant difference in shock effect *if you're using them right* - yes, you'll do more damage with a single Tank Charge than you will with Lancers, but both are going to be quite deadly.

[Aenima]

Thank you very much Entropy, that's a pretty awesome post there, should be a big help!