Do you think the Mongols could've reached the Atlantic?

[Minastir II]

The Mongols is a topic which fascinates me. I've been searching the net and borrowing dozens of books from the library, so I can have a good idea of what the Mongol Invasion was like and how it happened.

Starting from Khwarezmia and finishing at Hungary, the Mongol Invasion decimated the Steppes, Transoxiana, Anatolia and Eastern Europe, and it also proved that, the former barbaric tribes had been organised as a mighty empire which threw down the most advanced armies. After the fall of Hungary, the Mongols were poised to strike into the European Heartland and Italy, and were set on reaching the not so distant shores of the Atlantic. If not for the death of Ogedai Khan, the Mongols could've very well conquered all of the known world and dramatically changed today's technological and political outcomes.
So do you think the Mongols could've reached the Atlantic if Ogedai Khan hadn't died? Do you think the Italian States, the Holy Romans and the French all could've been crushed by the Golden Horde's onslaught? How do you think it would've turned out?

[Atlassmurf]

What the is up with all those "What if...?" threads? They ing annoy me...

To answer your question: Maybe.

That suits you?

[Minastir II]

What the is up with all those "What if...?" threads? They ing annoy me...

To answer your question: Maybe.

That suits you?

This isn't a "What if" thread, its an opinion thread on "Do you".
My own opinion is-
Despite the Mongols having the best force in the world, both strategically and trained, they simply would not have had the manpower to defeat all the Western European nations. The Mongols could've easily called up an army of something like 2-5 million men by the time they'd reached Hungary but only a part of these men would've been ethnic Mongolians and the rest could've rebelled at anytime once the Mongols started being defeated in a number of places. The weather and terrain of Western Europe wouldn't be ideal for fast moving Cavalry and not to mention how densely populated it was at that time. The Mongols could've been assailed from 5 different locations at one time which would cause significant morale and numerical damage to the Mongol Army. Even if they did destroy HRE and France, they would've eventually been pushed out due to the fact that large empires can't communicate as well and the newly conquered citizens would've probably created a huge uprising.

[pannonian]

Moved to the what-if forum from the VV main. Leave personal remarks out of the discussion please.

[6644kp]

The probably could have reached the Atlantic but it would not have been for the better. technologically the entire planet would have been thrown into a dark age and right now you probably would not be typing on a computer. You probably woudn't be typing on anything! Also the demographics would have become similiar to Central Asia. A sort of mix of Caucasiod and Mongoloid and a large mixed race population.

Be happy the tyrannical khan died when he died if only his grandfather was killed as a baby.

[pannonian]

The probably could have reached the Atlantic but it would not have been for the better. technologically the entire planet would have been thrown into a dark age and right now you probably would not be typing on a computer. You probably woudn't be typing on anything! Also the demographics would have become similiar to Central Asia. A sort of mix of Caucasiod and Mongoloid and a large mixed race population.

Be happy the tyrannical khan died when he died if only his grandfather was killed as a baby.

Rather unfair on the Mongols, who helped spread technology and culture via securing trade routes and a cosmopolitan attitude. The Mongols may not have originated many such advances, but they did a damn good job at disseminating it to all parts of their empire, and even beyond, as scholars, traders, craftsmen and anyone else of worth were encouraged to travel to and from their empire. People may not have wanted to subject themselves to Mongol overlords, but they were keen as heck to associate themselves with their prosperity and civilisation.

[Tiberius Tosi]

No, once they got off the steppes and the fertile crescent their horse population of such a vast size could not have been maintained and they would have suffered casualties and been worn down. Similar to what we saw with Atilla the Hun, where Italy and Western Europe were not fertile enough (or vast enough) to support his army and thus led to disease (and of course starvation) and he was forced to retreat.

Militarily could they have? Of course.

[Vermelho_Steele]

No, the terrain was too mountainous, overextension would've been a large problem and I can't see chainmailed European soldiers and knights being easy to kill with bows.

[Exarch]

so just how well would mongol horse archers have fared against the heavy knights in western europe?
especially given terrain and the mongol pacification methods?

[Slaytaninc]

There's plenty of essays on the internet that discuss why it would be impossible for the Mongols to take Western Europe.

However, in a way they did reach the Atlantic (I think).

If you consider the Mediterranean to be an extension of the Atlantic, the Mongols DID reach the Atlantic.

[Lysimachus]

so just how well would mongol horse archers have fared against the heavy knights in western europe?
especially given terrain and the mongol pacification methods?

Considering "heavy knights" featured during the Mongol's campaign in Hungary, Poland and the borders of the Holy Roman Empire, I think that's a bit irrelevant. Though since the Mongols had fought through hard terrain previously, i'm pretty sure they would just adapt to what lay in front of them. You can feint a withdrawal and then strike back regardless of the terrain you're in.

[Trax]

Warfare in Europe was a siege warfare.

According to Wiki there was 4000 castles in Switzerland alone.
Now, I imagine that most of those were barely worth the name but I have a feeling that it would have taken the Mongols few centuries
and hundreds of thousands of casualties to reach the Last Sea.

[Valandur]

Warfare in Europe was a siege warfare.

According to Wiki there was 4000 castles in Switzerland alone.
Now, I imagine that most of those were barely worth the name but I have a feeling that it would have taken the Mongols few centuries
and hundreds of thousands of casualties to reach the Last Sea.

Thats when the Mongol Blitzkrieg comes in.
In Hungary, the Mongols encircled the Castles and destroyed the surrounding countryside, which would eventually cause the defenders to surrender, sally forth or eventually be destroyed.
The Mongols were also masters of Siege Warfare.

[Gestalt]

Correct conquering the chinese and taking their impressive fortifications also weren't a walk in the park as some here are led to believe.They also had access to better seige equipment, and chinese siege engineers which were heads above any European power at the time.

[Odovacar]

Thats when the Mongol Blitzkrieg comes in.
In Hungary, the Mongols encircled the Castles and destroyed the surrounding countryside, which would eventually cause the defenders to surrender, sally forth or eventually be destroyed.
The Mongols were also masters of Siege Warfare.

Which is why they did not take any stone castle in Hungary?
Your informations are wrong, the mongols only took wooden fortifications, also called castrum. They were amateurs in siege warfare.

[Valandur]

Which is why they did not take any stone castle in Hungary?
Your informations are wrong, the mongols only took wooden fortifications, also called castrum. They were amateurs in siege warfare.

In China, the Mongols captured the best and largest fortifications the world had to offer. They also recruited Chinese Engineers of which they would later use in the Khwarezm, which was at the time, the most advanced and largest Empire in the world. The Mongols annihilated them easily and destroyed some of the largest cities in weeks such as Bukhara, Samarkand and Urgench. And afterwards, they annihilated the Russian Principalities easily. They captured and destroyed Kiev in two weeks.
If the Mongols didn't have experience in siege warfare, then they would've never conquered most of Asia. They were nearly invincible in the field, but being besieged by the Mongols would've been one of the greatest terrors the citizens of that city or castle would ever experience.

Fact: The Mongols destroyed the city of Caffa by catapulting plague infected corpses over the walls and into the city. When the merchants tried to escape the city by sea, they carried the plague with them into Europe.

[Lysimachus]

In China, the Mongols captured the best and largest fortifications the world had to offer. They also recruited Chinese Engineers of which they would later use in the Khwarezm, which was at the time, the most advanced and largest Empire in the world. The Mongols annihilated them easily and destroyed some of the largest cities in weeks such as Bukhara, Samarkand and Urgench. And afterwards, they annihilated the Russian Principalities easily. They captured and destroyed Kiev in two weeks.
If the Mongols didn't have experience in siege warfare, then they would've never conquered most of Asia. They were nearly invincible in the field, but being besieged by the Mongols would've been one of the greatest terrors the citizens of that city or castle would ever experience.

Fact: The Mongols destroyed the city of Caffa by catapulting plague infected corpses over the walls and into the city. When the merchants tried to escape the city by sea, they carried the plague with them into Europe.

Is the last part of that rumour or actual fact?

[Trax]

In China, the Mongols captured the best and largest fortifications the world had to offer. They also recruited Chinese Engineers of which they would later use in the Khwarezm, which was at the time, the most advanced and largest Empire in the world. The Mongols annihilated them easily and destroyed some of the largest cities in weeks such as Bukhara, Samarkand and Urgench. And afterwards, they annihilated the Russian Principalities easily. They captured and destroyed Kiev in two weeks.
If the Mongols didn't have experience in siege warfare, then they would've never conquered most of Asia. They were nearly invincible in the field, but being besieged by the Mongols would've been one of the greatest terrors the citizens of that city or castle would ever experience.

However the Mongols took control of Hungary they couldn't occupy any fortressed cities like Fehérvár, Esztergom, Veszprém, Tihany, Győr, Pannonhalma, Moson, Sopron, Vasvár, Újhely, Zala, Lockenhaus, Bratislava, Nitra, Komárom, Fiľakovo and Abaújvár. Learning from this lesson, the fortresses came to play a significant role in Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe

[intel]

But the Chinese didn't build fortifications in the same way Europeans did. Chinese didn't build "castles", and as a rule their larger fortifications were walled cities.

[Gestalt]

I never said that they built "castles".They built some of the most impressive walled cities known to man Google Gyantse castle which is the first on Wiki's list of Chinese "castles http://www.travelpod.com/travel-phot....jpg/tpod.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_castles



The Middle East also had castles.The Mongols didn't seem to have too much of a problem taking them did they
Now I am interested to learn more about Chinese fortifications.This looks like a starthttp://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9781846033810