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    Default Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    I've read both "The Petition of the Candlemakers" and "Parable of the Broken Window" by 19th century Frenchman Frederic Bastiat. I was impressed both with the man's grasp of economics and his wit.

    Today I found "The Law", and I'm even more impressed with Bastiat's grasp of ethics and politics. It is shockingly similar to Ayn Rand's Objectivism.

    It's fitting that such a genius wouldn't be widely recognized in his home country... or continent for that matter.

    It's long, so I'm going to first post the excerpts I find most interesting. At the bottom will be a link if you'd like to read the whole thing, and I strongly recommend doing so.

    Fair warning: It's still going to be long. Bolded will be the theme stated near the end, if you don't feel like reading the shortened-but-still-pretty-long version I've posted.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    What is law? What ought it to be? What is its domain? What are its limits? Where, in fact, does the prerogative of the legislator stop?



    I have no hesitation in answering, Law is common force organized to prevent injustice; — in short, Law is Justice.


    It is not true that the legislator has absolute power over our persons and property, since they pre-exist, and his work is only to secure them from injury.



    It is not true that the mission of the law is to regulate our consciences, our ideas, our will, our education, our sentiments, our works, our exchanges, our gifts, our enjoyments. Its mission is to prevent the rights of one from interfering with those of another, in any one of these things.


    Law, because it has force for its necessary sanction, can only have as its lawful domain the domain of force, which is justice.


    And as every individual has a right to have recourse to force only in cases of lawful defense, so collective force, which is only the union of individual forces, cannot be rationally used for any other end.


    The law, then, is solely the organization of individual rights, which existed before legitimate defense.

    Law is justice.
    We hold from God the gift which, as far as we are concerned, contains all others, Life — physical, intellectual, and moral life.






    But life cannot support itself. He who has bestowed it, has entrusted us with the care of supporting it, of developing it, and of perfecting it. To that end, He has provided us with a collection of wonderful faculties; He has plunged us into the midst of a variety of elements. It is by the application of our faculties to these elements, that the phenomena of assimilation and of appropriation, by which life pursues the circle which has been assigned to it, are realized.





    Existence, faculties, assimilation — in other words, personality, liberty, property — this is man.








    It is of these three things that it may be said, apart from all demagogue subtlety, that they are anterior and superior to all human legislation.







    It is not because men have made laws, that personality, liberty, and property exist. On the contrary, it is because personality, liberty, and property exist beforehand, that men make laws. What, then, is law? As I have said elsewhere, it is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense.











    It is in the nature of men to rise against the injustice of which they are the victims. When, therefore, plunder is organized by law, for the profit of those who perpetrate it, all the plundered classes tend, either by peaceful or revolutionary means, to enter in some way into the manufacturing of laws. These classes, according to the degree of enlightenment at which they have arrived, may propose to themselves two very different ends, when they thus attempt the attainment of their political rights; either they may wish to put an end to lawful plunder, or they may desire to take part in it.









    Woe to the nation where this latter thought prevails amongst the masses, at the moment when they, in their turn, seize upon the legislative power!



    Up to that time, lawful plunder has been exercised by the few upon the many, as is the case in countries where the right of legislating is confined to a few hands. But now it has become universal, and the equilibrium is sought in universal plunder. The injustice which society contains, instead of being rooted out of it, is generalized. As soon as the injured classes have recovered their political rights, their first thought is, not to abolish plunder (this would suppose them to possess enlightenment, which they cannot have), but to organize against the other classes, and to their own detriment, a system of reprisals, — as if it was necessary, before the reign of justice arrives, that all should undergo a cruel retribution, — some for their iniquity and some for their ignorance.








    It is so much in the nature of law to support justice, that in the minds of the masses they are one and the same. There is in all of us a strong disposition to regard what is lawful as legitimate, so much so that many falsely derive all justice from law. It is sufficient, then, for the law to order and sanction plunder, that it may appear to many consciences just and sacred. Slavery, protection, and monopoly find defenders, not only in those who profit by them, but in those who suffer by them. If you suggest a doubt as to the morality of these institutions, it is said directly — "You are a dangerous innovator, a utopian, a theorist, a despiser of the laws; you would shake the basis upon which society rests."




    Yes, as long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true mission, that it may violate property instead of securing it, everybody will be wanting to manufacture law, either to defend himself against plunder, or to organize it for his own profit. The political question will always be prejudicial, predominant, and absorbing; in a word, there will be fighting around the door of the Legislative Palace. The struggle will be no less furious within it. To be convinced of this, it is hardly necessary to look at what passes in the Chambers in France and in England; it is enough to know how the question stands.






    Is there any need to prove that this odious perversion of law is a perpetual source of hatred and discord, that it even tends to social disorganization? Look at the United States. There is no country in the world where the law is kept more within its proper domain — which is, to secure to everyone his liberty and his property. Therefore, there is no country in the world where social order appears to rest upon a more solid basis. Nevertheless, even in the United States, there are two questions, and only two, which from the beginning have endangered political order. And what are these two questions? That of slavery and that of tariffs; that is, precisely the only two questions in which, contrary to the general spirit of this republic, law has taken the character of a plunderer. Slavery is a violation, sanctioned by law, of the rights of the person. Protection is a violation perpetrated by the law upon the rights of property; and certainly it is very remarkable that, in the midst of so many other debates, this double legal scourge, the sorrowful inheritance of the Old World, should be the only one which can, and perhaps will, cause the rupture of the Union. Indeed, a more astounding fact, in the heart of society, cannot be conceived than this: That law should have become an instrument of injustice. And if this fact occasions consequences so formidable to the United States, where there is but one exception, what must it be with us in Europe, where it is a principle — a system?




    M. Montalembert, adopting the thought of a famous proclamation of M. Carlier, said, "We must make war against socialism." And by socialism, according to the definition of M. Charles Dupin, he meant plunder. But what plunder did he mean? For there are two sorts: extralegal and legal plunder.







    As to extralegal plunder, such as theft, or swindling, which is defined, foreseen, and punished by the penal code, I do not think it can be adorned by the name of socialism. It is not this which systematically threatens the foundations of society. Besides, the war against this kind of plunder has not waited for the signal of M. Montalembert or M. Carlier. It has gone on since the beginning of the world; France was carrying it on long before the revolution of February — long before the appearance of socialism — with all the ceremonies of magistracy, police, gendarmerie, prisons, dungeons, and scaffolds. It is the law itself which is conducting this war, and it is to be wished, in my opinion, that the law should always maintain this attitude with respect to plunder.







    But this is not the case. The law sometimes takes its own part. Sometimes it accomplishes it with its own hands, in order to save the parties benefited the shame, the danger, and the scruple. Sometimes it places all this ceremony of magistracy, police, gendarmerie, and prisons, at the service of the plunderer, and treats the plundered party, when he defends himself, as the criminal. In a word, there is a legal plunder, and it is, no doubt, this which is meant by M. Montalembert.













    Now socialism, thus defined, and forming a doctrinal body, what other war would you make against it than a war of doctrine? You find this doctrine false, absurd, abominable. Refute it. This will be all the more easy, the more false, the more absurd and the more abominable it is. Above all, if you wish to be strong, begin by rooting out of your legislation every particle of socialism which may have crept into it, — and this will be no light work.





    M. Montalembert has been reproached with wishing to turn brute force against socialism. He ought to be exonerated from this reproach, for he has plainly said: "The war which we must make against socialism must be one which is compatible with the law, honor, and justice."



















    But how is it that M. Montalembert does not see that he is placing himself in a vicious circle? You would oppose law to socialism. But it is the law which socialism invokes. It aspires to legal, not extralegal plunder. It is of the law itself, like monopolists of all kinds, that it wants to make an instrument; and when once it has the law on its side, how will you be able to turn the law against it? How will you place it under the power of your tribunals, your gendarmes, and of your prisons? What will you do then? You wish to prevent it from taking any part in the making of laws. You would keep it outside the Legislative Palace. In this you will not succeed, I venture to prophesy, so long as legal plunder is the basis of the legislation within.













    It is absolutely necessary that this question of legal plunder should be determined, and there are only three solutions of it:








    1. When the few plunder the many.






    2. When everybody plunders everybody else.





    3. When nobody plunders anybody.































    Partial plunder, universal plunder, absence of plunder, amongst these we have to make our choice. The law can only produce one of these results.













    Partial plunder. — This is the system which prevailed so long as the elective privilege was partial; a system which is resorted to, to avoid the invasion of socialism.













    Universal plunder. — We have been threatened by this system when the elective privilege has become universal; the masses having conceived the idea of making law, on the principle of legislators who had preceded them.













    Absence of plunder. — This is the principle of justice, peace, order, stability, conciliation, and of good sense, which I shall proclaim with all the force of my lungs (which is very inadequate, alas!) till the day of my death.















































    Here I am encountering the most popular prejudice of our time. It is not considered enough that law should be just, it must be philanthropic. It is not sufficient that it should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive exercise of his faculties, applied to his physical, intellectual, and moral development; it is required to extend well-being, instruction, and morality, directly over the nation. This is the fascinating side of socialism.






























    But, I repeat it, these two missions of the law contradict each other. We have to choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free. M. de Lamartine wrote to me one day thus: — "Your doctrine is only the half of my program; you have stopped at liberty, I go on to fraternity." I answered him: "The second part of your program will destroy the first." And in fact it is impossible for me to separate the word fraternity from the word voluntary. I cannot possibly conceive fraternity legally enforced, without liberty being legally destroyed, and justice legally trampled under foot. Legal plunder has two roots: one of them, as we have already seen, is in human egotism; the other is in false philanthropy.






    The Socialists say, since the law organizes justice, why should it not organize labor, instruction, and religion?




    Why? Because it could not organize labor, instruction, and religion, without disorganizing justice.







    For, remember, that law is force, and that consequently the domain of the law cannot lawfully extend beyond the domain of force.







    When law and force keep a man within the bounds of justice, they impose nothing upon him but a mere negation. They only oblige him to abstain from doing harm. They violate neither his personality, his liberty, nor his property. They only guard the personality, the liberty, the property of others. They hold themselves on the defensive; they defend the equal right of all. They fulfill a mission whose harmlessness is evident, whose utility is palpable, and whose legitimacy is not to be disputed. This is so true that, as a friend of mine once remarked to me, to say that the aim of the law is to cause justice to reign, is to use an expression which is not rigorously exact. It ought to be said, the aim of the law is to prevent injustice from reigning. In fact, it is not justice which has an existence of its own, it is injustice. The one results from the absence of the other.




    But when the law, through the medium of its necessary agent — force — imposes a form of labor, a method or a subject of instruction, a creed, or a worship, it is no longer negative; it acts positively upon men. It substitutes the will of the legislator for their own will, the initiative of the legislator for their own initiative. They have no need to consult, to compare, or to foresee; the law does all that for them. The intellect is for them a useless lumber; they cease to be men; they lose their personality, their liberty, their property.














    You say, "There are men who have no money," and you apply to the law. But the law is not a self-supplied fountain, whence every stream may obtain supplies independently of society. Nothing can enter the public treasury, in favor of one citizen or one class, but what other citizens and other classes have been forced to send to it. If every one draws from it only the equivalent of what he has contributed to it, your law, it is true, is no plunderer, but it does nothing for men who want money — it does not promote equality. It can only be an instrument of equalization as far as it takes from one party to give to another, and then it is an instrument of plunder. Examine, in this light, the protection of tariffs, prizes for encouragement, right to profit, right to labor, right to assistance, right to instruction, progressive taxation, gratuitousness of credit, social workshops, and you will always find at the bottom legal plunder, organized injustice.







    You say, "Here are men who are wanting in morality or religion," and you apply to the law; but law is force, and need I say how far it is a violent and absurd enterprise to introduce force in these matters?








    Socialism, like the old policy from which it emanates, confounds Government and society. And so, every time we object to a thing being done by Government, it concludes that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of education by the State — then we are against education altogether. We object to a State religion — then we would have no religion at all. We object to an equality which is brought about by the State then we are against equality, etc., etc. They might as well accuse us of wishing men not to eat, because we object to the cultivation of corn by the State.



















    It is thus that an inventor will make a small machine before he makes one of the regular size. Thus the chemist sacrifices some substances, the agriculturist some seed and a corner of his field, to make trial of an idea.
















    But, then, think of the immeasurable distance between the gardener and his trees, between the inventor and his machine, between the chemist and his substances, between the agriculturist and his seed! The Socialist thinks, in all sincerity, that there is the same distance between himself and mankind.













    It is not to be wondered at that the politicians of the nineteenth century look upon society as an artificial production of the legislator's genius. This idea, the result of a classical education, has taken possession of all the thinkers and great writers of our country.





    Men, therefore, are nothing but raw material. It is not for them to will their own improvement. They are not capable of it; according to Saint-Just, it is only the legislator who is. Men are merely to be what he wills that they should be. According to Robespierre, who copies Rousseau literally, the legislator is to begin by assigning the aim of the institutions of the nation. After this, the Government has only to direct all its physical and moral forces towards this end. All this time the nation itself is to remain perfectly passive; and Billaud Varennes would teach us that it ought to have no prejudices, affections, nor wants, but such as are authorized by the legislator. He even goes so far as to say that the inflexible austerity of a man is the basis of a republic.









    To show how universal this strange disposition has been in France, I had need not only to have copied the whole of the works of Mably, Raynal, Rousseau, Fenelon, and to have made long extracts from Bossuet and Montesquieu, but to have given the entire transactions of the sittings of the Convention. I shall do no such thing, however, but merely refer the reader to them.



    You must see, then, that the socialist democrats cannot in conscience allow men any liberty, because, by their own nature, they tend in every instance to all kinds of degradation and demoralization.




























    Last edited by Senno; May 07, 2010 at 10:37 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Bastiat is a very underrated intellectual. I could spend days mining quotational gold from his writings.

    Bastiat > Adam Smith.

    Adam Smith's writings was a deterioration from the french tradition of economics (as well as rationalist liberalism of the Scottish enlightenment) from which him and Bastiat drew from . One of the key differences between their varying success is that Adam Smith wrote in English.

    Bastiat is the better poster child for classical liberalism and laissez faire economics.
    Last edited by BNS; May 07, 2010 at 06:34 PM.



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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by BNS View Post
    Bastiat is a very underrated intellectual.
    That's precisely the reason I've posted this.

    It's exciting for me to find people like him.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    That's precisely the reason I've posted this.

    It's exciting for me to find people like him.
    You would probably like Turgot, Bastiat's predecessor. He just doesn't have the same wealth in writings. Though I haven't read much of him these paragraphs below have left a memorable impression on me.

    Turgot on laissez faire:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The general freedom of buying and selling is therefore the only means of assuring, on the one hand, the seller of a price sufficient to encourage production, and on the other hand, the consumer, of the best merchandise at the lowest price. This is not to say that in particular instances we may not find a cheating merchant and a duped consumer; but the cheated consumer will learn by experience and will cease to frequent the cheating merchant, who will fall into discredit and thus will be punished for his fraudulence; and this will never happen very often, because generally men will be enlightened upon their evident self-interest.

    To expect the government to prevent such fraud from ever occurring would be like wanting it to provide cushions for all the children who might fall. To assume it to be possible to prevent successfully, by regulation, all possible malpractices of this kind, is to sacrifice to a chimerical perfection the whole progress of industry; it is to restrict the imagination of artificers to the narrow limits of the familiar; it is to forbid them all new experiments; it is to renounce even the hope of competing with the foreigners in the making of the new products which they invent daily, since, as they do not conform to our regulations, our workmen cannot imitate these articles without first having obtained permission from the government, that is to say, often after the foreign factories, having profited by the first eagerness of the consumer for this novelty, have already replaced it with something else. It means forgetting that the execution of these regulations is always entrusted to men who may have all the more interest in fraud or in conniving at fraud since the fraud which they might commit would be covered in some way by the seal of public authority and by the confidence which this seal inspires, in the consumers. It is also to forget that these regulations, these inspectors, these offices for inspection and marking, always involve expenses, and that these expenses are always a tax on the merchandise, and as a result overcharge the domestic consumer and discourage the foreign buyer. Thus, with obvious injustice, commerce, and consequently the nation, are charged with a heavy burden to save a few idle people the trouble of instructing themselves or of making enquiries to avoid being cheated. To suppose all consumers to be dupes, and all merchants and manufacturers to be cheats, has the effect of authorizing them to be so, and of degrading all the working members of the community.


    Turgot on profit:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It is this advance and this continual return of capitals which constitute what one must call the circulation of money — that useful and fruitful circulation which gives life to all the labors of society, which maintains movement and life in the body politic, and which is with great reason compared to the circulation of blood in the animal body. For if, by any disorder whatsoever in the sequence of expenditures on the part of the different classes of society, the undertakers [entrepreneurs] cease to get back their advances with the profit they have a right to expect from them, it is evident that they will be obliged to reduce their undertakings; that the amount of labor, the amount of consumption of the fruits of the earth, the amount of production, and the amount of revenue will be reduced in like measure; that poverty will take the place of wealth; and that the common workmen, ceasing to find employment, will fall into the extremest destitution.








  5. #5

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by BNS View Post
    . One of the key differences between their varying success is that Adam Smith wrote in English.

    Bastiat is the better poster child for classical liberalism and laissez faire economics.
    Bastiat is truly more a poster child for pure laissez faire than Adam Smith for sure.

    But I would say that is precisely why Smith is now far more well known and is generally considered far more important historically. Smith really did have a much more realistic and pragmatic grasp on how political economy actually works than Bastiat, who like Crocer mentioned, was too much an idealist.
    Last edited by chilon; May 09, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    good stuff, and thank you for introducing him to me, but you might want to put that in spoilers bud.
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    He was also a close friend of Gustave de Molinari. The first market anarchist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_de_Molinari

  8. #8

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Ah, I love reading Bastiat, haven't done it since gov class a few years ago. I love his Candlestick Makers piece, excellent satire.

    I regret, sir, that I have but one rep to give you for this thread. Great work!

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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Sorry about the confusing layout and odd spacing. No idea how that happened.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  10. #10

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    ahh an advocate for privatising oppression to the wealthiest and making chatel of everyone else, admitedly while using flowery language to hide his hatred of anyone less fortuante/wealthy than himself. All law to be reliant on property law? So someone with no land has no rights?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    ahh an advocate for privatising oppression to the wealthiest and making chatel of everyone else, admitedly while using flowery language to hide his hatred of anyone less fortuante/wealthy than himself. All law to be reliant on property law? So someone with no land has no rights?
    Property =/= Land.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Blue View Post
    Property =/= Land.
    But land = property. One of the most important forms of property.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
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    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  13. #13

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    But land = property. One of the most important forms of property.
    Justicar was implying that if all law was based on property law (and property rights), people who owned no land would not have any rights. So I felt I had to point out the fact that land is not the only kind of property.
    Last edited by Snowball; May 09, 2010 at 07:35 PM.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  14. #14
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    ahh an advocate for privatising oppression to the wealthiest and making chatel of everyone else, admitedly while using flowery language to hide his hatred of anyone less fortuante/wealthy than himself. All law to be reliant on property law? So someone with no land has no rights?
    Did you not read?

    Property is an extension of our faculties.

    It's because we are entitled to our own faculties that we're entitled to our property.

    Quote Originally Posted by BNS
    Adam Smith wasn't a "pragmatist" just intellectually inconsistent.
    Funny you say it like that, BNS. "Pragmatists" are intellectually inconsistent by their nature. Adam Smith was both a pragmatist and a utilitarian.

    Needless to say, Bastiat's grasp on ethics were far superior to Smith's.


    Why is most of the debate here centered around Bastiat's influence, rather than his beliefs?
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  15. #15

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Why is most of the debate here centered around Bastiat's influence, rather than his beliefs?
    His ethics are hardly ''superior'' because of the basic hypocrisy in criticising a system that advocates redistrubtion of property as something that is evil because it goes against ''life, liberty and property'' for some reason, yet he had no problem advocating a system that had already led to gross acts of disrespect for things we now regard to be basic human rights, and would continue to do so.

    Whilst he may argue that Socialism can harm someone's rights (which is very arguable), he somehow fails to mention that laissez-faire capitalism had already lead to blatant violations of human rights, including property, as patentfraud had already been committed on a large scale in Britain a few decades earlier.


    Did you not read?

    Property is an extension of our faculties.

    It's because we are entitled to our own faculties that we're entitled to our property.
    Define ''property''. Even Marx advocated respect for property that one created, or that one must have, but many do not support the notion of ''property'' that is gained at the detriment of others to be right comparable to freedom or equality. To them, it's supporting legalized theft.

    The term ''intellectual inconsistent'' is better frased as ''intellectually flexible based on facts''. Because that's what it is. Again, the most brilliant minds of the 19th century were those who adapted and adopted out-of-the-box policies when they were pragmatic to implement.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; May 10, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  16. #16
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    His ethics are hardly ''superior'' because of the basic hypocrisy in criticising a system that advocates redistrubtion of property as something that is evil because it goes against ''life, liberty and property'' for some reason, yet he had no problem advocating a system that had already led to gross acts of disrespect for basic human rights, and would continue to do so.
    HAH! What imaginary system are you thinking of?

    Never before have Bastiat's (or my) ideas been implemented in any consistent manner.

    You miss the entire point of what he's saying in "The Law".

    When the government is given the task of controlling to economy for the "public good", what they're really doing is controlling the economy for whoever holds the reins of government at that time. Sometimes the poor hold the reins, sometimes the rich. It leads to a bitter, never-ending back-and-forth.

    Bastiat, like myself, wanted to keep the government to it's basic, proper function, to end the looting.

    Whilst he may argue that Socialism can harm someone's rights (which is very arguable),
    "Very arguable"? Socialism harms rights by it's nature.

    Define ''property''.
    Ugh.

    Simply; the product of labor... AND of thought.

    The term ''intellectual inconsistent'' is better frased as ''intellectually flexible based on facts''.
    No, it's not. That's a laughable attempt to make it something respectable.

    "Intellectually inconsistent" is the perfect phrasing.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  17. #17

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    HAH! What imaginary system are you thinking of?
    Laissez-faire capitalism, which he supported. His Economic Sophism are basically advocates for a laissez-faire market.

    Never before have Bastiat's (or my) ideas been implemented in any consistent manner.
    Probably because they weren't consistent, but angery rants against progression. But it's always nice to see Liberals act like Communists, and whenever you point out that their ideology has failed in the past they shout that it wasn't done ''properly'', rather than recognise the fact that human nature destroys the theory, which works only in theory.

    When the government is given the task of controlling to economy for the "public good", what they're really doing is controlling the economy for whoever holds the reins of government at that time. Sometimes the poor hold the reins, sometimes the rich. It leads to a bitter, never-ending back-and-forth.

    Bastiat, like myself, wanted to keep the government to it's basic, proper function, to end the looting.
    Actually, what he argues is government in the favour of the rich. The only thing the government has to do to favour the rich is nothing, as the rich already have power.

    It's true that often, when a government controlls the economy for the ''public good'', that they fail to do so, or lie. By the same logic, however, often when the government is ''free'', what's really going on is that the market is dominated by cartels. There is little to no actual freedom, as cartelism and monopolism happen at an alarming rate. New entrepeneurs are prevented from competing and small businesses are swallowed up. Free trade grinds to a halt. It's the same kind paradoxal result that happened to Communism, an ideology that promotes equality becomes incredibly inequal.

    In many cases, however, government intervention in the economy isn't necessarily bad or selfish. Napoleon III's dirgist attitude, European dirigism after WWII, American Progressivism, and many other examples have been very good for both the general population and the economy, without negatively affecting either, or being created into some conspiracy for the ruling group.

    "Very arguable"? Socialism harms rights by it's nature.
    Everything harms rights depending on how you view it. Again, compared to laissez-faire capitalism, socialism is far more respectful of rights. Considering that ''rights'' are very subjective. Libertarians view ''liberty'' in only an economic sense, Socialists only in the social sense.

    Bastiat's allusion was based on nothing. Socialism had already been implemented by Robert Owen in his factories, and strangely, it did not lead to less ''life, liberty and property.'', it lead to more of it. Compared to the awful world that was the ''free'' Capitalist market at the time, it valued human rights far more.


    Ugh.

    Simply; the product of labor... AND of thought.
    By that definition, Communists and Socialist agree with Bastiat that property is a fundamental right.


    No, it's not. That's a laughable attempt to make it something respectable.

    "Intellectually inconsistent" is the perfect phrasing.
    It's the perfect phrasing for people who can't stand the fact that Bastiat actually accomplished nothing but write philosophy which only a handful of people support. Men like Bismarck, Napoleon III, Adam Smith, etc, those ''intellectually inconsistent'' folk, were the ones who shaped the modern world, who created modern economics and created entire countries.

    So, yeah, it's something respectable. It's certainly more respectable than retreating from political life because you suck at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  18. #18

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Bastiat was too much of a dogmatic idealist. The greatest and most succesful political minds of the Right were those who were flexible and adopted egalitarian policies when they made sense. Bastiat's pleas were more ancient than progressive, more born out of a desire to maintain the old stratified social system than to develop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  19. #19
    BNS's Avatar ...
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    Miami, FL/U.S.A.
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    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    ahh an advocate for privatising oppression to the wealthiest and making chatel of everyone else, admitedly while using flowery language to hide his hatred of anyone less fortuante/wealthy than himself. All law to be reliant on property law? So someone with no land has no rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Bastiat was too much of a dogmatic idealist. The greatest and most succesful political minds of the Right were those who were flexible and adopted egalitarian policies when they made sense. Bastiat's pleas were more ancient than progressive, more born out of a desire to maintain the old stratified social system than to develop it.
    What a load of utter ignorant bull.

    - Bastiat came from working class origins.

    - His relative political exclusion was a result of constant conflict with the french system as well as the emerging french socialist tide.

    For shame to just attempt to assassinate his character on the basis of blind ideology rather than his writings.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Bastiat is truly more a poster child for pure laissez faire than Adam Smith for sure.

    But I would say that is precisely why Smith is now far more well known and is generally considered far more important historically. Smith really did have a much more realistic and pragmatic grasp on how political economy actually works than Bastiat, who like Crocer mentioned, was too much an idealist.
    Adam Smith wasn't a "pragmatist" just intellectually inconsistent. Anyone from a free market liberal to a social democrat could like the entirety of a single writing just on the basis of when in his life he wrote that particular piece. He didn't have much of an original voice he just echoed the ideas of other intellectuals when it was in style.
    Last edited by BNS; May 09, 2010 at 06:04 PM.



  20. #20

    Default Re: Frederic Bastiat's "The Law", Translated

    Quote Originally Posted by BNS View Post
    What a load of utter ignorant bull.

    - Bastiat came from working class origins.

    - His relative political exclusion was a result of constant conflict with the french system as well as the emerging french socialist tide.

    For shame to just attempt to assassinate his character on the basis of blind ideology rather than his writings.



    .

    he supported laisse fairre, and I stated exactly what the aims and results of laisse fairre are, the privatisation of tyranny.

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