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  1. #1
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Major Map Update WIP

    After a discussion about the prospects of the map, we've agreed to expand the map slightly to the West and slightly to the South. In order to do so we re-oriented Japan in respect to the mainland slightly and trimmed a bit of the lower Siberian region, as well as lessening the distance across the Yellow Sea, which is depicted in the illustrative map below. The expansion to the South is not depicted, and will not require any cutbacks in the north as we had some free height.

    Click to Expand Map - Old Map (Left) | Planned Map (Right)


    Before anything else is covered, it should be noted that the 'planned map' shown on the right is not currently implemented within the active build, and is scheduled for development after other things wrap up, which is why this thread is here. It also isn't necessarily exact and may be altered some dimensionally to find the right sweet spot.

    The main reasoning behind the expansion/shift is to allow for more space to incorporate the Tibetan and Khitan homelands, whereas on the old map we'd have needed to simulate their western possessions through scripted income. It will also allow us to place the Ghurid (or Delhi) Sultanate on the map rather than have them emerge, which is better for gameplay reasons and will satisfy the ability to play as them. The expansion to the South will go down to the opening of the Strait of Malacca so that the Bay of Bengal can be connected to the South China Sea realistically. This will necessitate the inclusion of parts of Borneo and Sumatra, which will be treated like the Philippines are now.

    As of this time we have 15 factions, which is plenty work as it is. At the most 17 selectable main factions is the threshold which should not be surpassed due to interface reasons(this was the number used in M2 Vanilla). Cases could be made for Srivijaya and Sena based on filling the map expanse with non-rebels and the requisite uniqueness requirement, but such a move would require extensive deliberation and argumentation to establish. We are perfectly fine with expanding the map without incorporating any new full factions, and that is the plan for now, but feel free to discuss this matter. We will not entertain ideas about factions located within already populated map regions, since the reason for such an addition would be map balance first and foremost.

    What this change also means is that a number of current regions will be re-distributed from some of the more region heavy areas, and some current regions may be altered. Since we will undergo substantial changes, now is the optimum time for map changes to other areas to be proposed and reasoned out. After this is all said and done we will be much less likely to entertain changes to the map because of the fact that internal names and coordinates are very difficult to work with if they are constantly shifting, so we want to get all of the changes done in one go. I know tokimitsu suggested some Goryeo changes, and RW suggested some Song/Jin changes a while back, so if anyone wants to dig those up feel free. The guys over at Ministry of Rites may also have suggested changes to Dai Viet/Champa areas, or if not they may be interested in the ability to input into that.

    Use this thread to discuss the topics aforementioned.

    Old map thread
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; May 07, 2010 at 05:38 AM.

  2. #2
    Wundai's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: The Map

    Hey so the new map change,
    A little piece is cut out of Japan to the east, are there any significant losses there?
    Any wonders that were previously made by others that are now lost maybe, or settlements?

    Greets
    Wundai

  3. #3
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    The only reduction of the Japanese landmass in terms of not being on the resized map is half of Hokkaido, which was only one region anyways and had nothing really developed about it. Near as I can tell the rest of Japan is still there as-is.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    thanks Chris

  5. #5

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    I feel that a Navigable Mekong River in Southeast Asia would be important to the gameplay.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    yes it is and will be incorporated (you posted some good stuff elsewhere). This was mainly my idea, which i was happy that Chris has endorsed but does anyone else care to comment before we start looking at the particulars ?

  7. #7
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    One thing I want to make sure we pay attention to is settlements on invalid tiles. We have this problem with our current map and in some cases it hasn't been resolved. While this isn't causing errors outright on game start, we don't know what types of odd things it might do during the course of a campaign, aside from of course making it unplayable. I'd rather have settlements in nondescript plains that are functional than mountains or forests that look pretty.

    Here is a list of current settlements with this problem if we're going to use the current map as a base(it may be worth solving these in the interim even if we don't):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    02:28:13.515 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 223, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(129, 106) for the settlement of Son La.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.515 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 994, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(28, 316) for the settlement of Besh Baliq.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.515 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 1054, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(3, 268) for the settlement of Khotan.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.515 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 1597, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(73, 384) for the settlement of Kyrgyz Omuk.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.531 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 1738, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(44, 140) for the settlement of Halingyi.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.531 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 1944, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(189, 198) for the settlement of Xiang Yang.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.531 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 2261, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(162, 133) for the settlement of Heng Shan.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.
    02:28:13.593 [script.err] [error] Script Error in auh-newbuild/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 3278, column 12
    You have chosen an invalid tile(431, 355) for the settlement of Boli.
    It will mean not being able to reach this settlement and is a bug.
    For now we'll ignore it.


    Regarding our approach, will we be building out on our current map or redoing it?
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; May 25, 2010 at 10:35 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    These can be sorted relatively easily, once I get permission to work on the map ! I very keen to start on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus Lucifer View Post
    Regarding our approach, will we be building out on our current map or redoing it?
    We'll be 'building out', or rather moving the current map into the right hand corner of the new map grid:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    I am pretty much happy with this at present, the only thing I might do is again reposition Korean and Japan so as to fit all of Sakhalin and Hokkaido, give Japan some more landmass and reduce the Manchurian coastline yet still remain accurate:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  9. #9

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Just adding some notes regarding SE Asian settlement name changes here before I forget:

    Background:
    In the tenth century Dvaravati and the whole of the Chao Phraya Valley came under the control of Angkor. The Khmer maintained the Hindu-Buddhist culture received from the Mon but placed added emphasis on the Hindu concept of sacred kingship.
    Lamphun ----->Hariphunchai (centre of Mon kingdom in the north of present Thailand). May consider adding Lampang as its sister city nearby. Both 'rebel' or a Hariphunchai sub-faction.

    Remove Lan Na.

    Remove Jiang Long - add Chiang Rung/Chiang Hung (modern Jinghong, Yunnan), this was first seat of the fledgling Tai Lue kingdom apparently founded in 1180 called "Kingdom of Heokam". Add as sub-faction/rebel which will spawn/expand itself into north and central Thailand in 13th century to represent King Mengrai's foudning of Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai and beginnings of the Lanna state.

    Add "Xieng Dong Xieng Thong" a Tai name for Muang Sua which experienced a brief period of Khmer domination from 1185 to 1191. Approximately along south east border of Jiang Long.

    Phayao needs to be moved north-east, it was a small city-state kingdom itself founded in 1096, and should be Mon/Tai rebel (definately not Khmer).

    Sukhothai needs to be removed, not founded until 1238. EDIT: appears I'm wrong on this Sukhothai was a city, but the kingdom wasn't founded until 1238:
    Modern historians stated that the secession of Sukhothai from the Khmer empire began as early as 1180 during the reign of Po Khun Sri Naw Namthom who was the ruler of Sukhothai and the peripheral city of Sri Satchanalai (now a part of Sukhothai Province as Amphoe). Sukhothai had enjoyed a substantial autonomy until it was re-conquered around 1180 by the Mons of Lavo under Khomsabad Khlonlampong.
    Two brothers, Po Khun Bangklanghao and Po Khun Phameung (Po Khun was a Siamese title of high nobility) took Sukhothai from Mon hands in 1239. Bangklanghao ruled Sukhothai as Sri Inthraditaya – and began the Phra Ruang dynasty - he expanded his primordial kingdom to the bordering cities. At the end of his reign in 1257, the Sukhothai kingdom covered the entire Upper Chao Phraya valley.
    Lavo or Lavapura added (now known as Lop Buri) replacing either Sukhothai/Phimai (or both). Should likely be under Khmer control.

    Sri Satchanalai - added North of Sukhothai, its sister city.
    Pre-dated by original khmer settlement of Chalieng.

    Chalieng might constitute pre-Thai area of Khmer control :
    The ruins of Chaliang belong to a Khmer settlement dating from the reign of King Jayavarman VII (1181- 1220), ruler of the Khmer Empire, with its capital Angkor. Predating the city of Si Satchanalai, the site of Chaliang likely was established as a staging post. Its laterite shrine of Wat Chao Chan was built in the Bayon style as a Mahayana Buddhist structure. Nearby is the Wat Lak Mueang, a small, Khmer-style sanctuary with the city’s foundation pillar.
    ***Sukhothai (and Sri Satchanalai Chalieng if added) should be under Khmer control, though we can script in Thai rebellions in 1230*

    More background info on this and how Dali was responsible allowing the Tai peoples to populate SE Asia:

    Nanchao's significance for the Tai people was twofold. First, it blocked Chinese influence from the north for many centuries. Had Nanchao not existed, the Tai, like most of the originally non-Chinese peoples south of the Chang Jiang, might have been completely assimilated into the Chinese cultural sphere. Second, Nanchao stimulated Tai migration and expansion. Over several centuries, bands of Tai from Yunnan moved steadily into Southeast Asia, and by the thirteenth century they had reached as far west as Assam (in present-day India). Once settled, they became identified in Burma as the Shan and in the upper Mekong region as the Lao. In Tonkin and Annam, the northern and central portions of present-day Vietnam, the Tai formed distinct tribal groupings: Tai Dam (Black Tai), Tai Deng (Red Tai), Tai Khao (White Tai), and Nung. However, most of the Tai settled on the northern and western fringes of the Khmer Empire.

    The Thai have traditionally regarded the founding of the kingdom of Sukhothai as marking their emergence as a distinct nation. Tradition sets 1238 as the date when Tai chieftains overthrew the Khmer at Sukhothai, capital of Angkor's outlying northwestern province, and established a Tai kingdom. A flood of migration resulting from Kublai Khan's conquest of Nanchao furthered the consolidation of independent Tai states. Tai warriors, fleeing the Mongol invaders, reinforced Sukhothai against the Khmer, ensuring its supremacy in the central plain. In the north, other Tai war parties conquered the old Mon state of Haripunjaya and in 1296 founded the kingdom of Lan Na with its capital at Chiang Mai.
    Lavo, Sukhothai and Vimayapura were the main Khmer administrative centres and should be major cities with roads connecting them to the Angkor region.

    Si Thep (/Sri Thep) - NE of Lavo could be added, Khmer built city in the 12th century Khmer controlled this ancient city (see this map of fomer Dvaravati settlements conquered by the Khmers) but it had already began to decline:

    the power of the city was declining in the 11th-12th century A.D. During that time, the Lop Buri Kingdom (Lavo)began a new relationship with the Khmer Empire and adopted Hinduism beliefs as the main religion. Many architectural structures established in Lop Buri and its neighbouring cities at that time had signified the profound influence of Khmer art. In the Si Thep, for example, the Khmer stone sanctuaries such as Prang Yai and Prang Song Phi-Nong were established in the center of the city.
    None of the Khmer monuments appear to be more recent than early 11th c., suggesting that Si Thep was probably abandoned by the Khmer in that century.
    Not sure about the name of Roy (Roi) Et, whether it was the actual Khmer name of the settlement or a later Thai name. Needs to removed anyway, see below.

    Both Pegu and Thaton should not be under Khmer control (not sure why I thought they were) whilst both Mon strongholds the area came under rule of Bagan in 1056/57.

    Angkor------>Yasodharapura /Angkor Thom, whereas Angkor is the region or province name. Yasodharapura was centred slightly further northwest, and Angkor Thom overlapped parts of it and was created during our period. Suggest we do double settlement here like in Rusichi.

    Slight edit: The Khmers did not draw any clear distinctions between Angkor Thom and Yashodharapura: even in 14th century an inscription used the earlier name. The name of Angkor Thom — great city — was only in use from the 16th century.

    Phimai------->Vimayapura, the proper Khmer name ! Phimai is Thai.

    Sukhothai ----> ?????? Clearly this a Thai name (means Dawn Of Happiness) but I have tried to find the Khmer name and not had any luck
    Solved = Chaliang see above and below. It seems that Chaliang was chosen by the Khmer as the site for one of its outposts at the far extremity of the Khmer Empire because of its defensive position.

    For the later settlements, there are some Thai and Chinese historic documents dated about the 11th century AD, sisat prawhich mention an ancient city located in the area belonging to Sukhothai. This city is mentioned in the "Yonok Chronicle" of Northern Thailand as "Chaliang" while it is called in the chronicle of the Chinese's Sung Dynasty as "Choeng Lieng".
    The history of Sukhothai in the Khmer period is still not fully understood. Khmer architectural touches are readily discernable in the ruins of the few Sukhothai temples, notably the earliest parts of Wat Sri Sawai and Wat Phra Pai Luang, but it is unclear whether the site was a fully fledged Khmer settlement or merely a military stronghold But whatever they did inherit from the Khmers, it is obvious that the Thais wasted little time in constructing their own capital on a scale and in a style befitting the birth of a nation called Sukhothai.
    This website offers some clues on some pre-Sukhothai Khmer settlements:

    At the historical site of Sukhothai, Wat Chom Chuen is assumed to be the most ancient structure, originally of Khmer style, owing to twelve human skeletons dating from around the year 200 and features of the Khmer-style tower or prang among its large number of 7th century stupas or chedi. The edifice known as San Ta Pha Daeng is a Khmer sanctuary that once housed sandstone Hindu icons, built during the reign of King Suriyavarman II [1113-1150] of Angkor. Wat Phra Pai Luang was originally a Hindu sanctuary, converted into a Mahayana Buddhist monastery in the 13th century. This is evident from three Khmer-style towers called prang. Also, the lower part of a stone Buddha image in the meditation posture is similar to those built by order of King Jayavarman VII [1181-1220]. Another example is Wat Si Sawai, which reflects traces of Khmer architecture of an older Hindu shrine, dating from the 12th to 14th centuries, i.e. predating the Thai takeover of the city, and given such artifacts as Shiva images, a reclining Vishnu lintel and several small shiva lingas.
    In the deposits overlaying the burials, these are remained of at least 2 large brick buildings that might be datable to the 10th - 11th century AD. The next archaeological deposits, immediately below the upper most deposits belonging to Sukhothai period, yield traces of brick building and some ceramic roofing tiles bearing decorative designs of Ancient Khmer. The art style of these objects is comparable to that appeared at certain parts of Wat Mahathat Chalieng dated to the 12th century AD
    Seems clear enough from this that

    Vat Phu-------> Lingapura (Vat Phu is name of an important temple there rather than the city name)

    Vat Nokor------> Prey Nokor, most important seaport for the Khmers, located in what is now HCM city, Vietnam.

    Sikhoraphum (redudant)------->Preah Vihear -major temple complex on present Thai-Cambodian border, NE of Angkor.

    Some other Khmer centres in what is now Thailand that may or not replace what we have:

    - Phanom Rung (Stone castle) -major temple complex in eastern Thailand on the Phimai - Angkor road in Buriram province in the Isan region of Thailand. Located roughly on the border of our Phimai and Angkor provinces.

    - Khotraboon (Thai: Sakon Nakhon) was a Khmer major city probanly replacing Roy Et level with the bottom of Hainan.
    - Srikhotraboon, nearby within present-day Udon Thani Province

    - There was a Khmer city at Suphanburi, NW of Bangkok, originally founded in the Dvaravati period in the 9th century, when the city was known as "Mueang Thawarawadi Si Suphannaphumi" - need to find the (hopefully shorter) Khmer name. This would replace Muang Sing.

    - Ku Bua (Thai: Ratburi) an earlier Mon city, later a Khmer town - might also replace Muang Sing.

    - Srichaiya Singhapura (can replace Muang Sing right in upper middle part)- important Khmer site in southern Thailand, named in honorary stela:

    Built around the end of the 12th century, this place was once the westernmost outpost of the Khmer Empire, strategically located on the banks of Kwai Noi River 43 km. west of Kanchanaburi. The shrine complex at the heart of the site has been restored to give an idea of the structure’s original size, and a few remnants of the original stucco omamentation can still be seen.
    Surrounded by limestone hills, on the bank of the Kwae Noi, is the ancient city of Muang Sing, located in Tambon Sing of Amphoe Sai Yok. It is about 45 kilometers from Kanchanaburi, and 175 kilometers from Bangkok. The ancient city of Muang Sing is almost square-shaped, surrounded by moats, ramparts and laterite city walls. The laterite wall around the city is 880 meters long, with gates on all four sides.
    The city area is about 1.03 square kilometers. The south wide of the wall winds along the Kwae Noi river; there is an embankment of earth on each of the other inner sides of the wall; the outer sides are enclosed with seven moats and ramparts. These moats and ramparts were probably constructed for the water control system, as well as for fortification. There are also six ponds in the ancient city, which were possibly used for religious and irrigation purposes.
    -Prasat Bakan is located 100 km east of Angkor it stands as the largest single religious complex ever built during Angkorian Era, as its exterior enclosure is about 5 km square. Probably deserves it own settlement as even Jayavarman VII lived here, before recapturing the capital city of Yasodharapura from invading Chams in 1181.


    NOTE: Some of these more remote Khmer outposts can represented by PSFs as I appreciate that we're running out of settlements.
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; December 30, 2010 at 08:32 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Wish there was someone who knew somthing about SE Asian aorund here to respond to things. Whilst on holiday in Thailand, this is the amended map I finally came up with:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    A lot of changes but I feel this is as accurate as we're going to get. The Tai Chiefdoms could be a NP shadow faction, one that immediately emerges as a horde at the beginning of the game - or if there is a enough support a playable faction ?

    Answers on a postcard.
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; April 28, 2011 at 11:38 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Done a major update on all the Song/Jin settlements and a few other bits, but now dealing with CTD on the campaign screen after selecting a faciton, Map.rvm is generated. We now have around 172 regions.

    One thing the Geomod does not generate is a new descr_regions_and_settlement_name_lookup.txt - but I assume that will not make a difference ?
    Other things I have done to tried and solve this:

    - Removed all RIVERS/FEATURES - makes not difference (added back in)
    - FIXED ALL INVALID SETTLEMENTS (that Geomod's debugger was generating)
    - SOME REGIONS TOO LARGE ? fixed that so that no one region was massive.
    - Tested the campaign_script.txt (replaced with blank), descr_terrain.txt and descr_events.txt (used old ones not generated by Geomod and then reverted back)

    Other possibilities include:
    - Something to do with the rebel / 'minor' factions ?
    - Something to do islands ? I counted I don't think we have more than 10 'landmasses' so this surely can't be it ?
    - The map is too big and is killing my PC ?
    - I have not placed ports for all coastal settlements - could this be it ?

    Its been a while since I got knee-deep in mapping so I probably just missing something obvious.

    Anyway - all relevant files uploaded to this post.
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; September 14, 2011 at 03:51 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Just another thought - most of the settlements that I've added are just empty - devoid of any building structures, though some have the hinterland_policyeffects added. Also most have population 400, but some have 600 or more - not sure if that would have any effect ?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Thought it might be useful to show some of you where we actually are with the map, despite the bug:




    What has been updated so far:

    - Korea & Japan settlements updated following toki's research.
    - Tangut settlements changed after more research
    - Song/Jin settlements to reduced to around 20 each, based on accurate maps of the era. Song provinces now feature their correct 'imperial circuit' names i.e. Linan is settlement name, Liangzhe-Xi is the province name. For the Jin, I have done the same with the regional capitals, i.e. Shangjing province (Upper Capital), Huining is the settlement.
    - Southwest Song territory reduced and rebel regions added to account for tribal kindgoms that formed a buffer between Dali and the Song, and were important historically (Muege kingdom, Akha tribes).
    - Completely reworked Dai Viet, Khmer settlements according to yevon's research and my own on Cambodia - added rebel settlements for Tai Chiefdoms and Mon Kingdom.

    To do list:
    - Bagan settlements need a little rework
    - Tibetan and Khitan settlements need to 'stretched out' to fill the left-hand side of the map as we now have more room, Tibet may loose some of it current unhistorical settlements(i.e. Caka, etc) and gain a few more 'historical' ones.
    - Mongol tribes rearranged, and old Khitan settlements added.
    - Added settlement fro Srivajaya and Senas [possible once these factions have been added to the mod]

    EDIT: Would appreciate it if anyone sees anything that doesn't look right - let me know asap. For example - does the Viet territory look right ? I divided up parts of a Dali region between two Viet provinces in the NW, now thinking they look too big ?
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; September 14, 2011 at 06:40 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Gigantus is helping sort this - so hold of looking at these files until I report back - Cheers.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    SORTED ! Working now.

    After loading with your corrected map from Gig ( a few silly RGB errors) there were a series of errors I was suspecting, but thankfully all present in the log. Corrected those and its working - tho all factions were destroyed at the start (possibly something from before ?). Wonders are also missing, but wondering if that was something we removed before or not, or possibly connected to the faction destructions.

    Anyway, the map is HUGE - but I'm not experiencing any lag, even with a load of mountains and forests that need cutting back anyway. I will plough on with some more editing after the Dai Viet get a little more attention
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; September 15, 2011 at 04:30 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    The Viet territory looks ok, but I'm pretty sure that the western most region, Sầm Nưa, did not belong yet to this faction.

    It was considered by Emperor Le Thanh Tong as vassal territory around 1479, after a victorious campaign against a certain Laotien tribe named Bồn Man. The actual annexation was pretty late, under Nguyen emperors of 19th century. It's better if you turn it into rebel settlement.

    You can see in this map that the region itself is pretty mountainous, while Viet ethnic influences and population mostly concentrated in plain and valleys, as rice growing was and still is the most important form of economy for this people.
    Last edited by stsatan; September 15, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
    Learn, Savaran youths, to draw a bow, to ride a horse, to speak the Truth!

    For the Glory of Aryana!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Thanks, that topographic map is going to be useful for making the terrain and altering the heights map for Vietnam/Champa/Khmer territory. Should their be any navigable rivers in Vietnam ? We currently have:

    - Yangzte (China)
    - Yellow River (China)
    - Irrawaddy (Burma)
    - Tonle Sap/part of the Mekong (Cambodia)

    Should the first part of the Red River be navigable ?

    i know there are some issues with making navigable rivers function but I think we can make it work.
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; September 15, 2011 at 09:49 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    Maybe we can do as you said, it would be interesting, we can make it naviguable as far as Thang Long, which could also boost the trading income.
    Most Northern invasions to Vietnam came from both naval and land routes, with a more nuanced important on the naval, due to difficult terrains and hostile highlander tribes (that changed all the time though, as ppl changed sides easily those days). It seems that it took just one day to go from Guang Dong to Van Don or vice versa, so the sea invasion is much more viable.

    Several major sea battles that saved Dai Viet were fought on Bach Dang river mouth or surrounding seacoast, as the best plan for both Chineses and Champa armies was to attack Thang Long directly by the Red River.
    Learn, Savaran youths, to draw a bow, to ride a horse, to speak the Truth!

    For the Glory of Aryana!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    I would say navigable river in Vietnam are very important. We may create navy there, to support the army. It was instrumental in defeating the Yuan Mongols in the last two invasions.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Major Map Update WIP

    oK, here's another update reagarding the map. settlements are 99% decided, and we only have one settlement to spare (197 in total) which I think we might need for Chris's scripting faction. We can still tweak of course, I personally think populating Tibet we so many Gompa settlements may not have been a realistic move, even though it enhances gameplay, and without the Tibetan player might get very bored.

    Here are the starting settelments for each faction, let me know if anything looks unbalanced:

    Jin - 23
    Song - 20
    Khitans - 10
    Tanguts - 10
    Dali - 8
    Khmer - 14
    Dai Viet - 6
    Champa - 5
    Srivjaya -12
    Senas - 5
    Bagan - 12
    Minamoto - 5
    Taira - 6
    Tibet - 1
    Mongols - 1

    Here is the layout at the moment (bear in mind Senas and Srivijaya need to added as factions, but I have highlighted their areas anyway)



    Rivers are 70% plotted (was essential for the correct placement of certain settlement, esp the Mongol tribes), ports need adding, then I can get on with editing the areas of ground types and heights that are left. Also need to consider placment of PSFs, which I think we will use extensively. Still not noticing any lag which is good as the map is largest size possible and the settlements are nearly maxed out.
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; October 06, 2011 at 06:45 AM.

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