Mongol Religion etc

[Kingbaerg]

I am a big fan of SS but the Mongols have always bothered me. The addition of the Pagan Mongols in 6.3 is awesome. This is probably all impossible but it’s worth a suggestion, if any of this could be added in a future update. (I don’t know what’s hardcoded and whatnot).

These are just some suggestions that I think would make the Mongols more realistic, as well as make them more interesting to play. It mainly deals with religion, settlements and generals.

Traits:

Pagan General:
+1% Pagan conversion bonus when governing
+5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-3 (law, happiness, etc) when governing majority Islamic or Christian settlement
+1 loyalty when Khaan is Pagan

Islamic General:
+3% Islamic conversion bonus when governing
+5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Islamic settlement
-1 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-3 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Christian settlement
+1 loyalty when Khaan is Islamic

Christian General:
+3% Christian conversion bonus when governing
+5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Christian settlement
-1 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-3 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Islamic settlement
+1 loyalty when Khaan is Christian

Pagan Khaan:
+3% Pagan universal conversion bonus
+3% Pagan conversion bonus when governing
+10 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Islamic or Christian settlement
Promotes Pagan Generals
Allows construction of Altars to Tengir where there is a Pagan Governor or no Governor

Islamic Khaan:
+5% Islamic universal conversion bonus
+5% Islamic conversion bonus when governing
+10 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Islamic settlement
-3 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Christian settlement
Promotes Islamic Generals
Allows construction of Mosques where there is an Islamic Governor or no Governor

Christian Khaan:
+5% Christian universal conversion bonus
+5% Christian conversion bonus when governing
+10 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Christian settlement
-3 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Pagan settlement
-5 (law, happiness, etc) when governing a majority Islamic settlement
Promotes Christian Generals
Allows construction of Churches where there is a Christian Governor or no Governor

Anti-Pagan General:
-3% Pagan conversion when governing
-1 loyalty when Khaan is Pagan

Anti-Islamic General:
-3% Islamic conversion when governing
-1 loyalty when Khaan is Islamic

Anti-Christian General:
-3% Christian conversion when governing
-1 loyalty when Khaan is Christian

(I’m not sure on my numbers)


Other Additions

Mosques, Churches and Alters to Tengir not destroyed when settlements are captured. But they could be destroyed manually.

Religious unrest is affected by the religion of the Khaan and the Governors.

Overall low unrest except when the Khaan and governors provoke it, for example:
A settlement with a majority Muslim population governed by a Christian while your Khaan is Pagan will be quite unhappy.
A majority Pagan settlement with a Pagan Governor while your Khaan is Pagan will be quite happy.






Sorry this is a lot.

[django333]

I'd be willing to bet it's impossible to have multiple religions in a faction. It's a shame because these are great Ideas. It always bothered me as well that the Mongols in the game were first Muslim and then Pagan. One of the main reasons they were able to conquer and hold so much land so fast was because of religious tolerence. And if I remember correctly, by the time they started the Khwarezm campaign most of the leaders were Christians and Muslims.

[toluas]

Those are great proposals.

[Point Blank]

RR/RC has pagan mongols now, nice suggestions you have too.

[axnsan]

You can't have multiple religions withing a faction.
Though it would kinda be possible through heavy scripting.

Religious unrest can only be affected by the piety of the governor.

[Cyprexinia]

I think the first medieval totalwar had mongols as being of any religion, I fought a few islamic and christain/pagan generals.

[django333]

Pagan Mongols dont' really make since. By the mid 1200's Animism was in great decline among all Mongols. If I remember correctly, Ghengis was the only animist Khan. All the Khans after him were either Christian or Muslim (I could be wrong here). However they did maintain some of their Animist culture. Having said that, it didn't make since to have them as Muslims either.

If it's impossible to have multiple religions within a faction would it be possible to have cities that are conquered by Mongols remain whatever religion they are when they were conquered? And reduce the effect of religious unrest for the Mongol faction. Would it be possible to allow a faction to build Masques and Churches and recruit Priests and Imams? This would make it even easier for the Mongols to expand but historically they had no problems expanding at all.

[Caesar Clivus]

Pagan Mongols dont' really make since. By the mid 1200's Animism was in great decline among all Mongols. If I remember correctly, Ghengis was the only animist Khan. All the Khans after him were either Christian or Muslim (I could be wrong here).

Pretty sure it was only later that they converted.

[Kingbaerg]

I think in the East (Yuan Dynasty) they slowly moved towards Buddhism, while in the West (Ilkhanate, Golden Horde and Chagatai) they slowly converted to Islam. They still kept religious freedom for the most part, allowing Christianity, Paganism, etc to survive. Eastern Christianity made a huge growth in the Mongol Empire, but was crushed when it fell apart.

[Waffen9999]

It's a little late but the Mongols didn't start to really convert to Islam until they established the various Khanates after the main horde broke apart. The Golden Horde went Islamic, the Il-Khanate remained largely Pagan ruling over Muslim Persia. Hulegu for instance who was known as the Destroyer of Baghdad was a Pagan/Buddhist if you will. His wife was a Nestorian Christian. Quite a few of the Khan's wives were actually Nestorian Christian. Hell, it would be more accurate to probably make them Christian over Islamic, but Pagan is still the best. Ogedei who succeeded Genghis Khan was a pagan. The successors after him mainly Guyuk, Mongke and Khublai were more or less Buddhist/Pagans. Buddhism always had a place in Mongolia but Tengrii (the sky god) was still all powerful.

Anything less than Pagan just doesn't sit right, and definately not Islam since the later campaign covers into the time when Hulegu reigned as Khan of the Il-Khanate and wasn't exactly known for his tolerance of Muslims.

[Cyprexinia]

It's a little late but the Mongols didn't start to really convert to Islam until they established the various Khanates after the main horde broke apart. The Golden Horde went Islamic, the Il-Khanate remained largely Pagan ruling over Muslim Persia. Hulegu for instance who was known as the Destroyer of Baghdad was a Pagan/Buddhist if you will. His wife was a Nestorian Christian. Quite a few of the Khan's wives were actually Nestorian Christian. Hell, it would be more accurate to probably make them Christian over Islamic, but Pagan is still the best. Ogedei who succeeded Genghis Khan was a pagan. The successors after him mainly Guyuk, Mongke and Khublai were more or less Buddhist/Pagans. Buddhism always had a place in Mongolia but Tengrii (the sky god) was still all powerful.

Anything less than Pagan just doesn't sit right, and definately not Islam since the later campaign covers into the time when Hulegu reigned as Khan of the Il-Khanate and wasn't exactly known for his tolerance of Muslims.

Didn't left over Christian Crusaders help the Horde sack Baghdad? I think many of them were Nestorian Christian. Tho if I recall alot of religions were mixed together but the horde wasn't that kind to Muslims and many that were in the russian lands converted to their own form of Christianity.

[Waffen9999]

Didn't left over Christian Crusaders help the Horde sack Baghdad? I think many of them were Nestorian Christian. Tho if I recall alot of religions were mixed together but the horde wasn't that kind to Muslims and many that were in the russian lands converted to their own form of Christianity.

Yes, there were a handful of Crusader's present at the sacking of Baghdad where the entire city was wiped out and butchered except for the Christians who were spared at the request of Hulegu's wife. They comprised troops from Georgia and Armenia, and some Frankish troops from Antioch as the Mongols were in communication with the west at that time. As for them converting to Christianity in the Russian lands, not so much as that was the appanage of Juchi which then ultimately became the Golden Horde and converted to Islam upon the accension of Berke (Batu Khan's brother) as Khan of the horde. He was the first of the Mongol Khan's to basically break from the Main Horde and strike out on his own and he declared Islam the official relgion. The Golden Horde and Il-Khanate didn't particularly like each other as Berke never forgave Hulegu for destroying Baghdad.

Actually, from what I hear in 6.3 the Mongols will be Pagan again, they should also actually be able to marry princesses. Michael VIII of the Byzantine Empire sent his illigitemate daughter, Maria Palaiologina to marry Hulegu. He died before she arrived and instead she wound up marrying his son Abaqa. The Georgians and Armenians also sent off important women to marry prominent Mongol figures when necessary. I suppose they could be treated like Lithuania and allow marriage? (Not sure how that works though for them)

[Kingbaerg]

some of that stuff sounds awesome. as per my original post do you think that any of the stuff could be added simply as traits/ancillaries, maybe not with all of the effects. lowering the effect of religious unrest would be good.

while lurking on the All Under Heaven forum i found this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=235510 it sounds like they are planning on implementing some sort of multiple religion aspect to their mod.

[django333]

The mongols should probably have lower religious unrest all around because of their religious tolerence. There could be some cool traits and ancillaries there too. "Wife is Christian" or something like that comes to mind.