Where did my 12lbers go?

[Flavius Silvanus]

I thought I would give this game a try again. This is for vanilla.

This is my first campaign as Great Britain. I usually play as France or Prussia.

Anyway after I gained the ability to recruit 24lbers, I could no longer recruit 12lbers. The current year in my campaign in 1786.

This makes no sense.

I could see having some batteries of 24lbers on each Continent to act as seige guns, but the standard heavy cannon on the battlefield was the 12lber during this period, or am I mistaken.

It makes me not want to finish the campaign.

I guess I will go look for a mod. I used to play Imperial Splendor, so maybe I will check that out again.

[Jaketh]

whats the big deal, use the 24 pounders for sieges, and the 6 pounder horse artillery for battles

[morteduzionism]

whats the big deal, use the 24 pounders for sieges, and the 6 pounder horse artillery for battles

yeah, I can't understand what the gripe is either...

Like MortenJessen says, you can still recruit them in cities with barracks...or play your mod...

[MortenJessen]

Hi there.
Actually, if I am not mistaken, you should still be able to recruit 12 Ibers in those of your towns, that only has a military govenor-building series of upgrades.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[HomelessDepot]

I agree that it's not a big deal - but it is a dumb design decision. I want access to as many units as possible, even those that have been replaced by better models. I'd like to be able to recruit pikemen, for example, to garrison my drydocks.

-HD

[SonOfCrusader76]

I agree that it's not a big deal - but it is a dumb design decision. I want access to as many units as possible, even those that have been replaced by better models. I'd like to be able to recruit pikemen, for example, to garrison my drydocks.

-HD

Pikemen? They're completely obsolete by ETW's time - I disband them wherever I find them to save money.

[P|A|ntZ]

Pikemen? They're completely obsolete by ETW's time - I disband them wherever I find them to save money.

I find pikemen really useful against native americans as well as for early cavalry defense in Europe. I wouldn't say obsolete exactly, just need to be used selectively.

[♔Drewoid13♔]

I complained about this some months ago on a different thread.

So I agree its really annoying. Regardless of how useful a unit is, I'd still like the option to recruit it. And imho, 24lbs are better than 6lbs in all situations since there is no accuracy difference between the two that makes one more useful against inf. Its just annoying having to keep one barracks at each level to get the full roster while missing out on the other benefits upgraded versions provide.

[morteduzionism]

I complained about this some months ago on a different thread.

So I agree its really annoying. Regardless of how useful a unit is, I'd still like the option to recruit it. And imho, 24lbs are better than 6lbs in all situations since there is no accuracy difference between the two that makes one more useful against inf. Its just annoying having to keep one barracks at each level to get the full roster while missing out on the other benefits upgraded versions provide.

What "benifits?"

In a city/region that can only build barracks/walls the highest level barracks can't recruit anything bigger than 12lbers but can recruit everything below. You'd need only one of those regions. The issue would be transporting the 12lbers to where you want them but since there're more smaller cities than capital ones that really shouldn't be a problem, should it?

[♔Drewoid13♔]

What "benifits?"

In a city/region that can only build barracks/walls the highest level barracks can't recruit anything bigger than 12lbers but can recruit everything below. You'd need only one of those regions. The issue would be transporting the 12lbers to where you want them but since there're more smaller cities than capital ones that really shouldn't be a problem, should it?

hey morteduzionism,

if I want to use "older" units, then I have to lose out on the benefits the upper level buildings give: recruitment slots, repression, howitzers, moraters, rockets, etc. I forgo the ability to build those because the units I also want are at a lower level.

by benefits I mean the increased recruitmen slots, the ability to build howitzers, rocket arty, etc from an upper level base. that's not to mention the town (not city) barracks that would have to stay at a lower level, losing the benefits of increased recruit slot, repression, tax bonus that all come with higher level town commands.

[morteduzionism]

hey morteduzionism,

if I want to use "older" units, then I have to lose out on the benefits the upper level buildings give: recruitment slots, repression, howitzers, moraters, rockets, etc. I forgo the ability to build those because the units I also want are at a lower level.

This is where my confusion comes in: in regions where the city can only build two types of constructions (barracks/gov. residence and walls) the highest level military building can not recruit artillery units above 12lbers.

So it wouldn't matter what you did you could never get better units from those cities. For better units you'd need to capture a capital region.

For me (play as Spain) the perfect example is Flanders and Amsterdam. Flanders can never recruit light dragoons, 24lbers, etc...once Amsterdam develops higher it can no longer recruit the lower level units (i.e. 12lber)...but together...

I don't understand how you're restricted from "older" units unless you just have to have them all recruited from the same city.

by benefits I mean the increased recruitmen slots, the ability to build howitzers, rocket arty, etc from an upper level base. that's not to mention the town (not city) barracks that would have to stay at a lower level, losing the benefits of increased recruit slot, repression, tax bonus that all come with higher level town commands.

Aren't you talking about the differences between military buildings and governor residences?

As I said earlier, in smaller cities you wouldn't be able to recruit those high level units regardless of what you did.

The only way to get all those perks in one region is to take over a capital. Since those are of a limited quantity...

Again it somewhat sounds like you want to be able to recruit all units (old/new) from one city. That really doesn't make sense, does it?

Or is that it doesn't matter if it makes sense it's just what you would like to be able to do?

[dutch81]

But for port defense??? They are as expensive to maintain ... I agree I would actually like to recruit them as well because I also see some use for them especially early on before bayonet technology makes them completely useless, maybe make them stick through one more tier of development.

As for the 24 pounders making the 12 pounder obsolete ... this happens with some of the other early artillery as well, it is just progress and the advantage of removing them is that the AI will not spam all these old obsolete units as the game proceeds ... something CA finally got wise to in ETW.

[HomelessDepot]

I guess I just don't understand what the downside to the option is. Except perhaps with regards to the AI recruiting substandard units - but it already does that, right? Militia instead of line infantry, crappy cavalry, etc.

If I felt like the OP, and wanted to use 'obsolete' units for purposes other than their effectiveness on the battlefield (which is, I think, an entirely legitimate desire), I have to penalize myself and not upgrade certain buildings. Which, I think, is dumb design .

But it's also not the end of the world or anything.

-HD

[♔Drewoid13♔]

the AI recruiting substandard units

not that the AI was held to any standard in general...

I like options

[dutch81]

Also it is realistic to phase these old things out ... a country is not going to continue to produce something that will take resources away from something that is clearly better. We build M1A1's here for the US Army we could still build vintage M4's from WWII ... they would still kill people and blow things up but why would you if you can build the M1A1?

I still say the BEST thing about it is that it is the only thing that will keep the AI from building all the old cheaper garbage that plagued all other TW titles ... so CA DON'T EVER go back to that!

[♔Drewoid13♔]

Also it is realistic to phase these old things out ... a country is not going to continue to produce something that will take resources away from something that is clearly better.

I'd be happy to sign on when ETW gets a Hearts of Iron quality resource system (and an AI to manage it)

@morteduzionism - I'm making a difference between the towns and cities. Yes, city benefits for not upgrading buildings aren't as profound as towns, but one principle still applies: that I have to forgo new units b/c I want to continue using the older ones. Also, I'm restricted in my option to build "older" units, and I'm very much against limiting options as the more choices the better. 12lbs aren't even BAD units once the 24lb is available!

Following that point, because I can't build everything in London, I have to keep the arty depot in Scotland at a lower level to get the full range of units. Now what if I needed to build an army quickly? My armies are stocked with inf, a few cav, and 5-7 arty units in a combo of howizters and cannons. I don't want 24lb cannon, too expensive for my treasury. Now London is building the infantry I need (since building just cannon alone is too vulnerable (and we're pretending a french army is in Bristol)) and will be joined by the arty i'm making in scotland. oh wait! because I wasn't able to upgrade my arty factory b/c i'd lose being able to build cheaper 12lb guns, I won't have any howitzers until London finishes its queue. And since time is of the essence, I can't have london build cannon yet since the infantry are a higher priority with the French in Bristol.

Sure, its a far-fetched example but its a nonsensical restriction on the player. Napoleon's army wasn't composed of just one size of artillery, and even more nonsensical is That the 12lb cannon wasn't even obsolete in the 18th century! Napoleon used many of them and it remained a popular gun well into the civil war!

So where did the 12lbers go as the OP asked? They went to the land of stupid, ruled over by Creative Assembly with an iron-hardcoded fist.

And morteduzionism, I'm not pointing the anger or sarcasm at you. That's for CA and who ever though that making units obsolete was a good idea. I hope they didn't reason that too many units would mess up the game (AUM adds over a hundred new ones), or that the AI would be more balanced with fewer units (which its still retarded). But my point is that unit construction is a choice, and replacing one unit or making one unit become unavailable is retarded. Even if its historical usefulness expired early (pikemen), its not any reason to say they still couldn't be trained if the King wanted them to be.

[morteduzionism]

I'd be happy to sign on when ETW gets a Hearts of Iron quality resource system (and an AI to manage it)

@morteduzionism - I'm making a difference between the towns and cities. Yes, city benefits for not upgrading buildings aren't as profound as towns, but one principle still applies: that I have to forgo new units b/c I want to continue using the older ones. Also, I'm restricted in my option to build "older" units, and I'm very much against limiting options as the more choices the better. 12lbs aren't even BAD units once the 24lb is available!

Following that point, because I can't build everything in London, I have to keep the arty depot in Scotland at a lower level to get the full range of units. Now what if I needed to build an army quickly? My armies are stocked with inf, a few cav, and 5-7 arty units in a combo of howizters and cannons. I don't want 24lb cannon, too expensive for my treasury. Now London is building the infantry I need (since building just cannon alone is too vulnerable (and we're pretending a french army is in Bristol)) and will be joined by the arty i'm making in scotland. oh wait! because I wasn't able to upgrade my arty factory b/c i'd lose being able to build cheaper 12lb guns, I won't have any howitzers until London finishes its queue. And since time is of the essence, I can't have london build cannon yet since the infantry are a higher priority with the French in Bristol.

OK, I get it...

This is a unique situation that probably can only happen in the British Isles.

It sounds like the problem is Scotland. Since Scotland is capable of more advanced buildings it becomes "nonsensical" to not build them simply to keep the option of recruiting 12lbers...

Those're the breaks.

Each faction/geographical area has its' pros/cons. I mean really...lol...doesn't Great Britain get more ports, starts with a better navy and is relatively safer from raids/invasions than other factions?

As Spain I can't recruit light infantry in Europe until I research machine rifling...but you, as Great Britain, can.

I can have two regions with close enough proximity that I could benifit from the access to low level units, if I wanted, without "nonsensical" restrictions on building choices...but you, as Great Britain, can't.

The limitation, if any, isn't in the programming it's the limits of choosing a faction based on an island...lol

[MortenJessen]

I'd be happy to sign on when ETW gets a Hearts of Iron quality resource system (and an AI to manage it)

@morteduzionism - I'm making a difference between the towns and cities. Yes, city benefits for not upgrading buildings aren't as profound as towns, but one principle still applies: that I have to forgo new units b/c I want to continue using the older ones. Also, I'm restricted in my option to build "older" units, and I'm very much against limiting options as the more choices the better. 12lbs aren't even BAD units once the 24lb is available!

Following that point, because I can't build everything in London, I have to keep the arty depot in Scotland at a lower level to get the full range of units. Now what if I needed to build an army quickly? My armies are stocked with inf, a few cav, and 5-7 arty units in a combo of howizters and cannons. I don't want 24lb cannon, too expensive for my treasury. Now London is building the infantry I need (since building just cannon alone is too vulnerable (and we're pretending a french army is in Bristol)) and will be joined by the arty i'm making in scotland. oh wait! because I wasn't able to upgrade my arty factory b/c i'd lose being able to build cheaper 12lb guns, I won't have any howitzers until London finishes its queue. And since time is of the essence, I can't have london build cannon yet since the infantry are a higher priority with the French in Bristol.

Sure, its a far-fetched example but its a nonsensical restriction on the player. Napoleon's army wasn't composed of just one size of artillery, and even more nonsensical is That the 12lb cannon wasn't even obsolete in the 18th century! Napoleon used many of them and it remained a popular gun well into the civil war!

So where did the 12lbers go as the OP asked? They went to the land of stupid, ruled over by Creative Assembly with an iron-hardcoded fist.

And morteduzionism, I'm not pointing the anger or sarcasm at you. That's for CA and who ever though that making units obsolete was a good idea. I hope they didn't reason that too many units would mess up the game (AUM adds over a hundred new ones), or that the AI would be more balanced with fewer units (which its still retarded). But my point is that unit construction is a choice, and replacing one unit or making one unit become unavailable is retarded. Even if its historical usefulness expired early (pikemen), its not any reason to say they still couldn't be trained if the King wanted them to be.

Hi there.
1) Read what you are being told. I and morteduzionism has told you now, what I believe to be 5 times (6 if this one counts) how it works. You just do not understand. But do NOT let out your anger on morteduzionism for helping.
2) You can recruit your 12 ibers in Gibraltar or in Ireland if you manage the building slots right.
3) Here is how to do it, put out just for you: In Dublin, do the following
Magistrate --> Governors Residence --> Military Governors Encampment --> Military Governors Barracks. In those you are "blessed" with the inability to produce decent units (the rest of us curses those damn buildings far out where the stars burns), and it never gets better than 3 and 12 ibers. Huzzar, Huzzar.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[dutch81]

But if CA let you do this then the AI will also and that is the main problem with your wish! Do you really want to go back to RTW & MTWII and be spammed by massive armies of peasants?

[♔Drewoid13♔]

Do you really want to go back to RTW & MTWII and be spammed by massive armies of peasants?

haha not at all! I should have disclaimed my post with the requirement that ETW actually have an AI.