Western Response to the Winter War

[Junius]

I was talking with my grandad, who was born in Belfast in 1933, about the war, and his experiences during it. As well as his life during the war, through the Blitz, though it only hit Belfast a few times, I asked him about Finland during the war. He said that many people viewed Finland as a country standing up to the bully Russia, and there was popular support for the Finnish. This was before Russia was invaded by Germany and entered the war on the Allied side, and after they had invaded Poland, so they were considered as an unfriendly nation.

Apart from this anecdotal evidence, is there any other, either pro- or anti-Finnish, evidence from the West about the Winter War? I realise that Finland was not idelogically linked with Germany, more the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of alliance (the same one shared by the Allies and Russia). It is an aspect of the war which is overlooked to some extent, and I just want to learn further about it.

[Dr. Croccer]

France had plans in 1939 and '40 to invade the Soviet Union, one of the reasons being their aggression against Finland.

[Yorkshireman]

I'm sure there'll be some people on here that know this subject quite well, there is this bit from Wiki.

Franco-British plans for intervention in the Winter War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-...the_Winter_War

[wilpuri]

I'm sure there'll be some people on here that know this subject quite well, there is this bit from Wiki.

Franco-British plans for intervention in the Winter War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-...the_Winter_War

The planning for the Franco-British intervention was a farce from beginning to end. The main idea (According to Churchill & British) was to secure the Swedish Iron ore mines. The French on the other hand were far more eager to open up a front somewhere that wasn't France. The idea that they might actually end up going to war with the Soviet Union didn't seem to enter their minds..

The Finns had to officially ask for aid but refused because of its uncertainty. It did however have an effect in bringing the Soviets back to the negotiating table.

[Hakkapeliitta]

I believe there was a lot of support from western nations towards Finland; positive media coverage, donations and condemnations of the Soviet Union. But the main objective of the Anglo-French expedition would not have been aiding Finland against the Soviets, but to secure the Swedish ore mines in northern Sweden. Apparantly only a token Allied force would have ever set foot in Finland.

[Nergal1610]

Western countries had plans of sending an expedition to Finland through northern parts of Norway and Sweden.
The French and British saw the intervention in Finland as a way of securing the ore mining of Northern Sweden. The same ore that was vital to German military. At the same moment, Germans had plans for securing their ore supply with the aid of an invasion of Denmark and Norway. Despite the plans, no foreign country desired to tie itself to the Finnish cause. The countries that sent effective help were Great-Britain, France, Italy and Sweden. Sweden, being the greatest contributor, sent 85 000 rifles, 500 machine-guns, 300 cannons, 25 aeroplanes and a large amounts of ammunition. Hungary sent a volunteer battalion but it reached Finland too late as the war had already ended.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

However, Sweden did not give permission for the Allied expedition to enter it's territory and the plans were scrapped. Sweden'n foreign policy had a neutral goal and more active action for Finland would have made it a participant in the war.

Stalin did not want the war to escalate into a full blown conflict with Soviet Union and Germany pitted against Allies. Soviets gave up on their efforts of the conquest of Finland and instead desired to engage in negotiations with Finns. Before that they launched a massive attack to regain their military reputation and to strenghten their stance in the said negotiations.

[0N3]

Stalin did not want the war to escalate into a full blown conflict with Soviet Union and Germany pitted against Allies. Soviets gave up on their efforts of the conquest of Finland and instead desired to engage in negotiations with Finns. Before that they launched a massive attack to regain their military reputation and to strenghten their stance in the said negotiations.

So wanted to Stalin take the whole of Finland? Because i thought i he originally only asked for the parts Russia have now? And what where SU justification to invade Finland? That it had been part of the Russian Empire before the revolution?

[Leonidas]

The Soviets wanted more access to the sea. Its only been a national goal for Russia for what, 800 years or so?

[Trax]

So wanted to Stalin take the whole of Finland? Because i thought i he originally only asked for the parts Russia have now?

They wanted a regime change. Same that happened in the Baltics

And what where SU justification to invade Finland? That it had been part of the Russian Empire before the revolution?

Mainila incident

[Atterdag]

They wanted a regime change. Same that happened in the Baltics

But the Baltic countries were annexed directly into the SU through occupation. Are you sure kind old mass murder Uncle Joe intended the same for Finland?

[Nikitn]

Finland would get smashed in the summer if they continued the war (no ammunition left for Finnish army, very serious losses, winter gave huge advantage 2 the defender in many fields).

[Lysimachus]

Finland would get smashed in the summer if they continued the war (no ammunition left for Finnish army, very serious losses, winter gave huge advantage 2 the defender in many fields).

If I recall correctly, it was the Russians who suffered "very serious losses". The fact that it wouldn't be winter wouldn't suddenly make the Finns lose. They could take advantage of the terrain by setting up snipers in trees, minefields, barricades, machine-gun nests with interlocking fields of fire, and focused artillery fire to interdict sections of the line. On top of that, the atrocious Red Army command structure would add to the losses suffered.

Apart from this anecdotal evidence, is there any other, either pro- or anti-Finnish, evidence from the West about the Winter War? I realise that Finland was not idelogically linked with Germany, more the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of alliance (the same one shared by the Allies and Russia). It is an aspect of the war which is overlooked to some extent, and I just want to learn further about it.

Junius,

If I recall correctly, the British offered some degree of support to Finland (I suppose the public agreed with this too, the idea of an underdog fighting off a monster) in the form of supplies but revoked this once they sided with Germany. However since there were no ideologically driven motives for either side, contrary to the war of annihilation that Britain and Germany had, I feel that Britain would have been more lenient with Finland since they hadn't directly declared war on the Allies.

[Nikitn]

If I recall correctly, it was the Russians who suffered "very serious losses". The fact that it wouldn't be winter wouldn't suddenly make the Finns lose. They could take advantage of the terrain by setting up snipers in trees, minefields, barricades, machine-gun nests with interlocking fields of fire, and focused artillery fire to interdict sections of the line. On top of that, the atrocious Red Army command structure would add to the losses suffered.

Finnish army *didn't have* artillery, minefields barricades machine guns et cetra. Especially not artillery. If Finnish artillery fired, it would be destroyed by counter artillery fire pretty quick.

Fact is, by the end of the winter Finland was ed. Only reason Stalin didn't occupy entire Finland is because he didn't need 2 get even more hated by the world + he didn't need 2 occupy Finland simply for the glory.

Didn't some Brits volunteer to fight for the Finns?

unlike Indians.....

[Babur]

unlike Indians.....

,Indians fought for Britain not for Finns anyway I doubt they would have liked the weather

Does not prevent volunteers.

maybe because they were opposed to Communism?

Neutral, but not stupid.

Sweden cooperated with Finland before the war. Actually it given some (undercover) support to Finland and Estonia which was allied with latvia and cooperated with Poland.

Frankly it seems everybody in the region to some degree cooperated against the Soviets.
I wonder why.

classic realism I guess, forgoing neutrality to protect one's interests

This surfaced in people's minds:



The Swedish public was actually pretty supportive of directly entering the war on Finland's side. It was only because of the current government that this didn't become the case, because the pro-neutrality faction managed to prevail over the pro-war faction. It would've been interesting to see what would've happened had Sweden and Finland formed an alliance against the Soviet Union.

Ingria and Karelia would have been taken back?

[HansDuet]

maybe because they were opposed to Communism?

That too possibly.

There still are close ties between Sweden and Finland, there is a significant Swedish population in Finland and Swedish is the second official language. Family ties.

So indeed Finland had some significant support among Swedish public and their goverment did not stop Swedish volunteers who wanted go and fight for Finland.

[Trax]

If I recall correctly, it was the Russians who suffered "very serious losses". The fact that it wouldn't be winter wouldn't suddenly make the Finns lose.

To be fair the Finns had no reserves left by the end of the war, the front was about to collapse any moment.

[Slaytaninc]

To be fair the Finns had no reserves left by the end of the war, the front was about to collapse any moment.

Yeah, but let's look at the resources both sides had.

[Guderian's Duck]

The front effectively had collapsed by the time the war ended. The Mannerheim line had been breached in several places and Finnish troops were dead tired. Reserves were effectively gone. Ammunition was low when the war started, now after three months it was almost gone.

There was foreign aid to Finland. However, most of it either was ineffectual or simply didn't get to Finland in time for the Winter War. The Soviets waged a propaganda campaign in many countries but no one believed this. Many donated money and supplies. The American government used some loophole to let Finland sell agricultural produce in America for money to buy weapons from other nations as Congress wouldn't sell Finland military supplies. The UK and France looked seriously into aiding the Fins but nothing came of it--it actually ended with the toppling of the Daladier government in France.

[YuriVII]

The supposed intervention by France and Britain actually had Germany concerned. They beleived while these forces were in route to Finland, they would effectively confiscate German Iron coming out of Norway and Sweden. Arguably, this was one of the reasons that lead Hitler to attack Norway.

[Landsknecht_88]

I strongly doubt that the Western Allies would have been stupid enough to intervene on Finland's behalf, had Sweden allowed them to pass through. The French and British were already having enough problems with the Germans as it was.