bridge battles...

[leif_erikson]

Tone suggested to reveal my idea in public so bare with me a sec. I hated bridge battles on classical RS but on RS2 they are just drive me nuts because they take a long time to win/lose. My idea is to make them more interesting or challenging by giving swimming ability to some heavy units too (for each faction obviously) because now we have only light skirmishers and light cavalry doing so and their flanking attacks are easily beaten off. What do you think about it?

[Beast Within]

I like the idea myself it sounds good and would quicken up the process of bridge battles which can be quite tedious at times.

I always though that if you could get your soldiers to from up in some way like the spartan shield wall in the film 300 and push their way through that would be better, but obviously thats not possible to produce a special ability like that (or at least i dont think so).

But definitely the idea of allowing some heavy troops to swim would be good, but is it truly realistic. It would mean picking the troop carefully. I doubt any roman troop which you would class as 'strong' could do so, the sheer about of weight would stop them, never mind the actual flow of the river, it isnt like swimming in a pool. But also some 'Strong' Units in certain armies dont have lots of armour, they are skilled rather then covered in armour so maybe they could.

The only other thing would be to create new units for factions which were used for river crossings but this is obviously not historical in most cases which would be that this idea couldnt really be used.

I just dont know whether it would be realistic, it would really have to depend on the unit doing the swimming, these units would have to be carefully selected too. depending on their attributes and the amount of armour.

[Revan The Great]

I dislike the idea.

Instead, you should add alternative fords besides the bridge itself, so that you and your enemy can cross in more than one place.

[Ballacraine]

Additional fords make more sense to me.

Balla.

[leif_erikson]

I dislike the idea.

Instead, you should add alternative fords besides the bridge itself, so that you and your enemy can cross in more than one place.

I'm not sure but to add alternative fords near the bridge might need the map to be reworked something which I don't think any of us want. Adding swimming ability to a few heavy units for each faction is much easier to implement and an easy fix for boring bridge battles.

[Revan The Great]

I'm not sure but to add alternative fords near the bridge might need the map to be reworked something which I don't think any of us want. Adding swimming ability to a few heavy units for each faction is much easier to implement and an easy fix for boring bridge battles.

When I say extra fords I don't mean extra river crossings on the strategic map, I mean additional crossings on the battle-map, which as far as I know take nothing special to add in.

[leif_erikson]

When I say extra fords I don't mean extra river crossings on the strategic map, I mean additional crossings on the battle-map, which as far as I know take nothing special to add in.

Told you already I had no idea I might be wrong, but I thought some stuff to be present on the battle map has to be also on the strategic map.

Anyway if it's easier to put more fords near the bridge I'm all for it

[Beast Within]

It all sounds good and i like the marine idea which has been brought up especially

[Revan The Great]

Which isn't to say, by the way, that you shouldn't expand swimming ability a little. Certain units (like Agrainians, or Spartan Skiritai) who are kind of lightly armed 'Special Forces' type soldiers could very well have swimming added to their traits. But in general you should be very conservative on this. Linthorax armor worn by alot of Hoplites and Hellenic units, for example actually swells and gets heavy when it gets wet. People with big heavy shields or heavy weapons generally wouldn't be able to swim either. Most people back then couldn't swim very well - it's not like now when alot of people have the chance to visit a swimming pool or a beach once in awhile.

I think a good idea would be to allow Marine units to swim (Carthaginians, Spartans, Athenians, Ptolemies). You could figure that they're kind of trained to be able to fall off a boat and stay afloat for awhile, even if it means shedding their armor and weapons. Reasonably, you could think that they'd be able to handle a quick river crossing even with their full battle-kit. It would also provide a good niche for the somewhat out-of-place Marines units currently in the game - River-crossing assault soldiers. It gives them a very specialized role that hitherto they've kind of lacked.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

I think a good idea would be to allow Marine units to swim (Carthaginians, Spartans, Athenians, Ptolemies). You could figure that they're kind of trained to be able to fall off a boat and stay afloat for awhile, even if it means shedding their armor and weapons. Reasonably, you could think that they'd be able to handle a quick river crossing even with their full battle-kit. It would also provide a good niche for the somewhat out-of-place Marines units currently in the game - River-crossing assault soldiers. It gives them a very specialized role that hitherto they've kind of lacked.

I like this idea a lot.

I'm also for the idea of fords, and was always bothered by the fact that in RTW when you do a river battle, even without a bridge, you usually have one place to ford the damn thing. It's a ford for a reason - if you could only fit 4 men abreast you'd look for a better crossing.

[dvk901]

You cannot add additional fords to rivers...once in a great while I have seen the game create them, but there is no way to add them at will.

I have mixed feelings about this idea. On the one hand, there is a documented story of a Batavian Auxilia unit who swam a river in full gear, and his commander mentioned it on his diploma. They were known for their incredible strength I guess. But on the other hand, really guys, a guy in armor is going to have a hard time swimming. Not only is the extra weight a problem, but the restriction of movement as well. And, I have even seen cavalry units that could swim drown on the way over. I don't know what determines that, but there may be a unit mass issue or something involved.

Personally, I handle bridge and river crossing issues by NOT blocking the bridge or ford. The result of 'blocking' is, as you say, a very long drawn out battle....and I've had the game CTD before because it doesn't seem to like that mass of men all jammed together for a long period. So I started deploying my army before the battle in a sort of semi-circle around the bridge crossing or ford, so that the enemy is forced into a 'cup' so to speak, where they can be attacked from 3 sides. It considerably shortens battles, and I don't think the outcome is any different. I've lost a few and won more of them.

On the flip side...where the enemy is in a formation and you are forced to cross yourself, I have simply used 'tactics' to avoid being bottled up on the bridge or in the ford.

[Revan The Great]

I believe what effects units drowning mid-swim is fatigue. Once they hit tired or maybe Very Tired they can no longer keep themselves afloat so they sink and die - plus swimming tires units out very quickly.

I also am of like mind to you, Dvk, on river battles. I tend to allow a good deal of room in front of the bridge for the enemy to fit probably 60-80% of their army in. But for those who want them, I don't see any harm in increasing the amount of units who could (reasonably) be able to swim, and then adding in a few extraordinary exceptions for heavy units (Batavian Auxilaries for sure, and maybe the four Marine units) that would add flavor and, if nothing else, a bit more challenge for a human player. I don't believe it would effect balance in any significant way.

[Irishguy]

I've seen multiple crossings loads of times in RS 1.6a.... the bridge near Ariminum has 2 or maybe even 3 crossing on the battle map.

[sithlord447]

i support this myself but atleast on RS and BI exe's often the ai has whole units die as they go into the water and then just mill about until they tire and die, and this basicly happens everytime it seems to me

[Mulattothrasher]

I have two suits of chainmail: one riveted with punched rings, and another with butted mail. In addition I can fight for 5 hours with few breaks in between and I consider myself in prime shape (eating right and the gym). I can tell you that you'd have to be in dandy shape to cross a strong current in full kit. I would be very hesitant to try it myself. My kit consists of a full suit of chainmail, a Gallic Agen helmet (as seen in my avatar), linen pants and a tunic, and a leather jerkin between the jerkin and the mail to help ease the impact of getting hit. About an extra 30 lbs total to carry, no including a shield, spear, javelin, sword, or camp gear you'd have strapped on your back.

No idea how the Batavians did it, or what river crossing they used, or the width of it, but I will put my neck out and say that their crossing point was a short one compared to the rest of the river, and they crossed with a mild current.

[Giannis]

The greek mercenaries that returned from Kunaxa in 400 bc did many river crossings. Only when not opposed on the other bank would they cross a river as deep as their chest holding their armour over their heads,perhaps inside their shields. They could cross while almost fighting when the water was lower than their genitals. In this occasion peltasts would be covering them in either side of their passing. But this is certainly NOT swimming. And even like this,hoplites were ordered to strip themselves from any clothing,implying that they faught naked only with shield and helmet(Things they could easily throw away in drowning danger)

Greeks could generally swim well. Herodotos says that in Salamis,the greeks could swim to the coast,whereas the barbarians(presumably speaking about the persians and not the phoenicians) were drowning (with the help of the greeks that were pushing them inside the water with their rows)

[Revan The Great]

Personally I don't recommend anyone try it, but I guess in a battle with adrenaline pumping and life or death on the line you'd probably be able to cross a river with at least a weak current.

[torzsoktamas]

I like the idea too.

[welwelwel]

I like the idea to, but I would adapt it a bit. What Mulattothrasher says is true, it wouldn't be very realistic to let a heavy infantry unit swim trough a strong current. But what we can do is give the ability to light troops. By doing so, their historical role is perfectly recreated. The swim across the river and attack the enemy in the flank/rear where they are the most vulnerable.

[Giannis]

I have a suspicion that this is highly impossible in RTW,but it would be nice if there were battles in rivers passable in all their length. Now this would be accurate as most river battles took place in shallow waters. But i'm sure someone would have done it if it was possible