Yugoslavia

[Raglan]

okay i have a really rather desperate need for books about Yugoslavia, especially concerning more social apsects, such as what they did with their free time. A book that links that in to the nationalistic fever that grips the area would be fantastic.

I'm focusing on any point in the existance of the state, but especially focused on the aftermath of the two world wars and the break down of the state.

please please please, i would be eternally grateful. As i deperately need them for my history project.

[Grof]

Wish my sister was here. She just finished her political sciences and did a whole bunch of stuff on the topic you are talking about. I will see if I can get her to give me a few names via text msg.

[hellheaven1987]

"The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999" by Misha Glenny is the best to suit your ask (there are a numbers others, but I only touch this one up to now). It provides great explaination about modern Balkan history (which means, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Yugoslavia, Albania) and how each connects to others. Overall, it is impossible to study Yugoslavia without understanding how great powers and its neighbours affect it (of course, the whole thing is full of disgusting actions and dirty politic).

[Raglan]

Wish my sister was here. She just finished her political sciences and did a whole bunch of stuff on the topic you are talking about. I will see if I can get her to give me a few names via text msg.

that would be wonderful! thank you

"The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999" by Misha Glenny is the best to suit your ask (there are a numbers others, but I only touch this one up to now). It provides great explaination about modern Balkan history (which means, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Yugoslavia, Albania) and how each connects to others. Overall, it is impossible to study Yugoslavia without understanding how great powers and its neighbours affect it (of course, the whole thing is full of disgusting actions and dirty politic).

i shall have a looksie. Thank you.

[Lysimachus]

I'm quite surprised the Balkan members of this forum haven't jumped on to this thread, providing you with a wealth of information.

[Aru]

I'm quite surprised the Balkan members of this forum haven't jumped on to this thread, providing you with a wealth of information.

I don't know about others, but I don't really read books about Yugoslavia to make a recommendation.
And second, I don't quite understand the question "What Yugoslavs did with their fee time?"

They watched TV, socialized with friends, played sports, went to the cinema or a disco or a church and such normal things that normal people normally do in their normal free time.

[Nikos]

"Black Lamb and Grey Falcon" by Rebecca West.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Lamb-Fal.../dp/014310490X

Part travelogue, part history, part love letter on a thousand-page scale, Rebecca West's Black Lamb and Grey Falcon is a genre-bending masterwork written in elegant prose. But what makes it so unlikely to be confused with any other book of history, politics, or culture--with, in fact, any other book--is its unashamed depth of feeling: think The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire crossed with Let Us Now Praise Famous Men. West visited Yugoslavia for the first time in 1936. What she saw there affected her so much that she had to return--partly, she writes, because it most resembled "the country I have always seen between sleeping and waking," and partly because "it was like picking up a strand of wool that would lead me out of a labyrinth in which, to my surprise, I had found myself immured." Black Lamb is the chronicle of her travels, but above all it is West following that strand of wool: through countless historical digressions; through winding narratives of battles, slavery, and assassinations; through Shakespeare and Augustine and into the very heart of human frailty. West wrote on the brink of World War II, when she was "already convinced of the inevitability of the second Anglo-German war." The resulting book is colored by that impending conflict, and by West's search for universals amid the complex particulars of Balkan history. In the end, she saw the region's doom--and our own--in a double infatuation with sacrifice, the "black lamb and grey falcon" of her title. It's the story of Abraham and Isaac without the last-minute reprieve: those who hate are all too ready to martyr the innocent in order to procure their own advantage, and the innocent themselves are all too eager to be martyred. To West, in 1941, "the whole world is a vast Kossovo, an abominable blood-logged plain." Unfortunately, little has happened since then to prove her wrong. --Mary Park --

[Raglan]

yes which is fine, except i'm writing a historical article, which means evidence is needed, other peoples interpretations, etc etc if i want good marks i can hardly write 'they watched tv' wheres the proof? how do i know that?

rule 1 of good history is never make assumptions

oh and nikos, thanks, i'll have a look

[Oklop]

yes which is fine, except i'm writing a historical article, which means evidence is needed, other peoples interpretations, etc etc if i want good marks i can hardly write 'they watched tv' wheres the proof? how do i know that?

rule 1 of good history is never make assumptions

oh and nikos, thanks, i'll have a look

Any books that you find written in what used to be Yugoslavia dealing with nationalism and its connection with social aspects will be probably nationalistic garbage (we good, everybody else bad) and I think many more years need to pass for clear, unbiased and fair description.

Aru is from Croatia that used to be a part of Yugoslavia. Me too BTW. I will tell you of books if I find any but here are my recollections:

I was in 7th grade when our people became stupid again and started the war, but I remember my childhood as very happy time.

School, free time, basketball.........some other stupid things as all boys do.

Very peaceful, crime was almost zero, there were no mafias or racketeers, or "untouchable tough guys" like now, our parents would let us play all day long in the park with almost no supervision as it was unthinkable for something to happen to a child.

Almost nobody locked the door, in smaller towns (like where my mom is from in Macedonia) when it was lunch time, the people of the house would just gather whatever children were playing in their yard at the time with their kids and feed them.

My parents would get worried only if I did not came home for longer than a full day, because if I slept and ate at friends home I would usualy call them, but not everyone had telephones (although this was rare in the 80s)

Often my grandparents would let students who missed the last bus out of town to sleep in their home and send them on their way after breakfast next morning.

It was safe and normal for young people to hitchhike and everybody picked hitchhikers.

There was MUCH LESS police than now that we are "democratic" and they were less visible, unlike now.

We were the only communist country that played Rambo 2 & 3 in cinemas, and Top Gun and similar films where commies are the bad guys.

There were only 2 or 3 channels on TV but VCR s were easy to acquire. People could own small businesses like a pub or a restaurant, and one of my uncles owned a small furniture factory.

Our cars sucked, but we had them at least.

Yugoslav passport was the best thing ever, you could travel all over Europe and good part of the world with no visa.

Healtcare was light years better organised than now, same goes for education.

All kids would get some kind of vacation trough school even if their family was poorer (this also helped our parents have a week for themselves)

Of course in the 1990s everybody older than 18 suffered some inexpainable brain disease and stared a civil war.

My father is a Serb, my mother is Macedonian, but honestly before the war I had absolutely no idea about the diferences between peoples, they were just the same with diferent accents, Croats were Yugoslavs from Croatia, Serbs were Yugoslavs from Serbia and so on.....boy it was a rude awakening let me tell you when finaly hit the fan.

Any books that you find written in what used to be Yugoslavia dealing with nationalism and its connection with social aspects will be probably nationalistic garbage (we good, everybody else bad) and I think many more years need to pass for clear and fair description.

[Ishoss]

Any books that you find written in what used to be Yugoslavia dealing with nationalism and its connection with social aspects will be probably nationalistic garbage (we good, everybody else bad) and I think many more years need to pass for clear, unbiased and fair description.

Aru is from Croatia that used to be a part of Yugoslavia. Me too BTW. I will tell you of books if I find any but here are my recollections:

I was in 7th grade when our people became stupid again and started the war, but I remember my childhood as very happy time.

School, free time, basketball.........some other stupid things as all boys do.

Very peaceful, crime was almost zero, there were no mafias or racketeers, or "untouchable tough guys" like now, our parents would let us play all day long in the park with almost no supervision as it was unthinkable for something to happen to a child.

Almost nobody locked the door, in smaller towns (like where my mom is from in Macedonia) when it was lunch time, the people of the house would just gather whatever children were playing in their yard at the time with their kids and feed them.

My parents would get worried only if I did not came home for longer than a full day, because if I slept and ate at friends home I would usualy call them, but not everyone had telephones (although this was rare in the 80s)

Often my grandparents would let students who missed the last bus out of town to sleep in their home and send them on their way after breakfast next morning.

It was safe and normal for young people to hitchhike and everybody picked hitchhikers.

There was MUCH LESS police than now that we are "democratic" and they were less visible, unlike now.

We were the only communist country that played Rambo 2 & 3 in cinemas, and Top Gun and similar films where commies are the bad guys.

There were only 2 or 3 channels on TV but VCR s were easy to acquire. People could own small businesses like a pub or a restaurant, and one of my uncles owned a small furniture factory.

Our cars sucked, but we had them at least.

Yugoslav passport was the best thing ever, you could travel all over Europe and good part of the world with no visa.

Healtcare was light years better organised than now, same goes for education.

All kids would get some kind of vacation trough school even if their family was poorer (this also helped our parents have a week for themselves)

Of course in the 1990s everybody older than 18 suffered some inexpainable brain disease and stared a civil war.

My father is a Serb, my mother is Macedonian, but honestly before the war I had absolutely no idea about the diferences between peoples, they were just the same with diferent accents, Croats were Yugoslavs from Croatia, Serbs were Yugoslavs from Serbia and so on.....boy it was a rude awakening let me tell you when finaly hit the fan.

Any books that you find written in what used to be Yugoslavia dealing with nationalism and its connection with social aspects will be probably nationalistic garbage (we good, everybody else bad) and I think many more years need to pass for clear and fair description.

That sounds like paradise, so what were the price?

[Oklop]

i'm currious how is the communist era viewed in the former Yugoslav states. Is it viewed positively? is tito remembered well?

Depends who you ask, it ranges from bloodsucker to Jesus reborn. I put him in the middle, he did lot of horrible things but managed to keep that nest of snakes peaceful for 50 years.

And if anyone with anti-Yugoslav feelings thinks I am wrong, please do point to what other 50 years in the last millennium and a half where people of Yugoslavia had better quality of life and even rights compared to SFRJ and I will gladly discuss it.

That sounds like paradise, so what were the price?

Only one political party.

No criticizing the government/party.

Absolutely no way to become big company owner. (although there were few millionaires from small businesses)

Crappy cars (Yugo, 101....) and TVs (but you could travel across the border and buy better)

Had to be a member of Communist youth when in school, no exceptions.

Religion frowned upon. (not that it stopped my grandma going to church while my grandpa mumbled)

But compared to what we have now, yes it was quite good, not paradise but quite good. People were kinder to each other, there was much less police (strange as it seems) employment was way better, school and healtcare too.

And to be honest, right now there is quasi democracy in all of my 3 countries (I am citizen of Croatia and Macedonia and am working toward Serbian citizenship), the political parties are basically mafias and acting like it, if you have enough influence/money you can kill a man and not go to jail (I am not kidding), big rich businessmen are exploiting the workers like cattle and getting away with it, the politicians are just stealing the money, there is less security but more police, even the church acts like a mafia...............

I beleive it was better in Yugoslavia, unfortunately we were not smart or cool headed enough to dissolve peacefully or to transcend our differences and move towards more modern state that would by now be in the EU.

[hellheaven1987]

That sounds like paradise, so what were the price?

Constantly terror operations against Albanians in Kosovo.

Other than that, Yugoslavia under Communist rule was rather a very peaceful nation. Nationalism only came back after late 1980s.

[il padrino]

Constantly terror operations against Albanians in Kosovo.

what the hell are you talking about ?Please don't ruin this thread with your nonsense posts.

[4th Regiment]

As few years older that other posters from Yugoslavia, I can say they are 100% right. I was in high school during breakup of Yugoslavia, and we had great time in old SFRJ, fun, living standard (not to tell quality of education) than 98% of the high school students can have now.

I would not agree that cars were crap - domestic cars were good for that time, Yugo was better than Hyundai models of the time, and Zastava 101 was car of the year in Europe in 1972., If I remember, year well. Now there is no single car/truck/motorviacle factory working in former Yugoslavia, and there was several back than…
And you could always had option to buy foreign car. For example, when my father started to work in 1970-71, my grandparents borrowed him some money, and he got brand new WV beetle produced in Sarajevo under license. It was common thing for his buddies, to get into car and drive to Adriatic coast (from western Serbia) for weekend, just for fun. Now, how many common people can have brand new WV model for cash, and drive to sea for fun, like nothing...

Political freedoms…well…what freedoms we have now? There is not real opposition party anywhere…and to be honest what is REAL difference between democrats and republicans or conservatives and labors…Modern “democracy” is just charade for masses, it just tool for rich people to have legitimacy to rule and to get even richer. Only in poorer countries, that fact is exposed naked, but in essence, it is same everywhere.

Constantly terror operations against Albanians in Kosovo.

What a trolling …Yeah, that is why they emigrated in hundreds of thousands from Albanian, to be terrorized by having unbelievable better life than in Albania, good, free, state education on Albanian language up to University, authomonus province run by local ethnic Albanian communists…

Since Clandestino and Il-Padrino are Partisan football fans, as kids, we Red Star fans, use to tease them calling Partisan – FC Albanian, since they had tradition of taking talented players from local Kosovo clubs. I think best goal getters of Partisan in history are still Fadil Vokri and Dzevad Prekazi

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

What have you unleashed? a Balkan thread! NOOO!

[Raglan]

thank you for that,

your point about the agenda of books and such is a good one, and i intend to use books and sources from all over, not just Yugoslavia. But of course i do need to use them, its hard to write a crediable essay (and especially one i get good marks for) without referencing to books and sources. Even if they happen to be biased.

[clandestino]

such as what they did with their free time

Good lord Yugoslavia wasn't Mars or the lost continent of Mu, people spent their free time like in every other fairly developed European country in that time.

[Aru]

Good lord Yugoslavia wasn't Mars or the lost continent of Mu, people spent their free time like in every other fairly developed European country in that time.

But he must have it written in a book for who ever will give him a grade.
So unless there's a book about Yugoslavs watching TV, it may as well have never happened. In which case my childhood was a dream about owning a TV (in color!!!) and watching cartoons.

[clandestino]

We had one too, what a coincidence, it was samsung ( color ! ) and it still works, I could post a picture as an evidence. Anyway for the OP, you could go to wiki and you'll find out that first public television in Yugoslavia start with transmitting in 1958. I suppose that people had TVs to watch the broadcast, even more we had company who produced TVs, the famous Ei Niš, I have one of those ( black and white ) which is almost 49 years old and it still works.
edit:
link to wiki article about television in Yugoslavia
passage from the article:

By 1970 the entire territory of Serbia was covered by the RTS signal.

I believe that by that time all the republics of the Yugoslavia had similar development of television.

[Oklop]

I believe that by that time all the republics of the Yugoslavia had similar development of television.

But they were TV Beograd, TV Zagreb, TV Skopje..........ah, nostalgia.

Oh, we were also only communist country that had jeans, coca-cola, Pepsi, Walt Disney cartoons, magazines with nude chicks and porn movies.

Satelite TV receivers were legal too. Helped with the boring local 2 channels.

I remember when my uncle was a student and they would go to a vacation in Bulgaria, Romania or any other WP country they would load on jeans and women stockings as they could sell them to local students for 5 - 10 times the original price and could spend the holiday as kings.

I just later figured out the importance of women stockings, those were not for sale but for "presents".