Links in Arda

[Santeri]

This thread is made for discussion of different kind of links in Arda in its history.

For first and example topic shall be the link between bad guys:
I have seen that many of here have noticed that Saruman and his fortress is miniature of Sauron. And what I have read and understood Sauron is miniature of Melkor. If you think about it they have more common than you first can think:
1. Angband > Mordor > Isengard: all are mostly same in different size.
2. Feared general(s) and followers: Gothomog and other barlogs > Witch king and nazgúl > Ugluk
3. Diplomatic follower/agent: Melkor: Sauron > Sauron: Mouth of Sauron > Saruman: Wormtonque
4. Influence: Melkor: corrupted Sauron, barlogs and other maiar > Sauron: corrupted nazgúl, (Dentethor and Saruman) > Saruman: corrupted Theoden
5. Allies: Sauron: Rhun and Harad > Saruman: Rhuandur
6. Sauron improved trolls -> olog hai > Saruman improved orcs -> his own uruks


So there is surely link between bad guys and how Tolkien pictured them. What are you thoughts about this and what could it mean?

[Ozzmosis]

This thread is made for discussion of different kind of links in Arda in its history.

For first and example topic shall be the link between bad guys:
I have seen that many of here have noticed that Saruman and his fortress is miniature of Sauron. And what I have read and understood Sauron is miniature of Melkor. If you think about it they have more common than you first can think:
1. Angband > Mordor > Isengard: all are mostly same in different size.
2. Feared general(s) and followers: Gothomog and other barlogs > Witch king and nazgúl > Ugluk
3. Diplomatic follower/agent: Melkor: Sauron > Sauron: Mouth of Sauron > Saruman: Wormtonque
4. Influence: Melkor: corrupted Sauron, barlogs and other maiar > Sauron: corrupted nazgúl, (Dentethor and Saruman) > Saruman: corrupted Theoden
5. Allies: Sauron: Rhun and Harad > Saruman: Rhuandur
6. Sauron improved trolls -> olog hai > Saruman improved orcs -> his own uruks


So there is surely link between bad guys and how Tolkien pictured them. What are you thoughts about this and what could it mean?

Nice connections, but I think you mean "Dunland" instead of "Rhudaur" as an ally. Rhudaur was the third kingdom that arnor split up into and was allied with the Witch-King.

[Shammien]

This thread is made for discussion of different kind of links in Arda in its history.

For first and example topic shall be the link between bad guys:
I have seen that many of here have noticed that Saruman and his fortress is miniature of Sauron. And what I have read and understood Sauron is miniature of Melkor. If you think about it they have more common than you first can think:
1. Angband > Mordor > Isengard: all are mostly same in different size.
2. Feared general(s) and followers: Gothomog and other barlogs > Witch king and nazgúl > Ugluk
3. Diplomatic follower/agent: Melkor: Sauron > Sauron: Mouth of Sauron > Saruman: Wormtonque
4. Influence: Melkor: corrupted Sauron, barlogs and other maiar > Sauron: corrupted nazgúl, (Dentethor and Saruman) > Saruman: corrupted Theoden
5. Allies: Sauron: Rhun and Harad > Saruman: Rhuandur
6. Sauron improved trolls -> olog hai > Saruman improved orcs -> his own uruks


So there is surely link between bad guys and how Tolkien pictured them. What are you thoughts about this and what could it mean?

Nice observation. Although I wouldn't include Saruman in this link. Sure, Sauron was kind of a copycat to Melkor. But Saruman differ from both of them in some of those points.

1. Angband and Mordor were built by the dark lords with hate and evil in their minds. Saruman got his fortress from the steward of Gondor.
2. Ugluk wasn't really and overly feared and known general amongts the free people. The horrors and powers Balrogs and Nazgúl possess can't really compare to an ordinary general Uruk of Isengard.
4. I might very well be wrong here, (Over a year since I read the books) but I don't recall Sauron actually corrupting Saruman, am I wrong here? I thought Saruman joined the dark side out of his own greed and lust for power (he even wanted to backstab Sauron and the ring for himself if I remember correctly, he wasn't portrayed like that in the movies).

[Lordinquisitor]

Saruman did copy sauron. It is stated specifically in the books at one point- In the chapter the road to isengard, i think.

While he didn`t build his fortress he shaped it to look like Barad-Dur. And Saruman thought that he might betray Sauron, but Sauron actually manipulated him.

[Scipio Africanus Maximus]

Saruman did copy sauron. It is stated specifically in the books at one point- In the chapter the road to isengard, i think.

While he didn`t build his fortress he shaped it to look like Barad-Dur. And Saruman thought that he might betray Sauron, but Sauron actually manipulated him.

How did he shape it? IIRC, it was stated that he occupied it and made it his base. It was built during the Second Age and he received the keys when he drove out the Dunlandings.

[Lordinquisitor]

How did he shape it? IIRC, it was stated that he occupied it and made it his base. It was built during the Second Age and he received the keys when he drove out the Dunlandings.

But Saruman had slowly shaped it (Isengard) to his shifting purposes, and made it better as he deceived- for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child`s model or a slaves flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasureable strength.

Also throughout the whole chapter are several mentions of newly built smithies, armouries etc.

[Scipio Africanus Maximus]

Originally Posted by The Two Towers, The Road to Isengard, Page 724
But Saruman had slowly shaped it (Isengard) to his shifting purposes, and made it better as he deceived- for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child`s model or a slaves flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasureable strength.

Also throughout the whole chapter are several mentions of newly built smithies, armouries etc.

Ah I see now. I thought you meant that he had built it to copy Barad-dur. Sorry.

[JorisofHolland]

1. Angband > Mordor > Isengard: all are mostly same in different size.

All three are based around towers or tower-like objects: Angband on the mountains, the main fortress are the Thangorodrim; Mordor around the Barad-Dur; Isengard around Orthanc and with many evil 'improvements' by Saruman

2. Feared general(s) and followers: Gothomog and other barlogs > Witch king and nazgúl > Ugluk

I don't like this one, you know.

3. Diplomatic follower/agent: Melkor: Sauron > Sauron: Mouth of Sauron > Saruman: Wormtongue

Sauron didn't do much (if any) diplomacy for Morgoth, you know.

4. Influence: Melkor: corrupted Sauron, barlogs and other maiar > Sauron: corrupted nazgúl, ([DEL]Denethor and[/DEL Saruman) > Saruman: corrupted Wormtongue

Denethor was certainly not corrupted, otherwise I agree.


5. Allies: Sauron: Rhun and Harad > Saruman: Dunland

This is a nice one, though it should be Dunland

6. Sauron improved trolls -> olog hai > Saruman improved Uruk-Hai -> his own Uruk-Hai

Again, Uruks (or Uruk-Hai) already existed (made by Sauron, simply Orcs with a few improvements NOT crossed with men). Saruman made a few 'improvements' still, though.

[Shocked]

Yeah Denethor wasn't exactly corrupted, but he was messed up from looking into a Palantir.. Sauron purposely showed Denethor certain images to discourage him and make him become fearful and paranoid

[Raiven]

1. Angband > Mordor > Isengard: all are mostly same in different size.

Were they same? I may be wrong but Orthanc was lonley tower, described as "fang". Barad-Dur and Angband were huge citadels with lots of fortifications.

Otherwise smart conections

[JorisofHolland]

Were they same? I may be wrong but Orthanc was lonley tower, described as "fang". Barad-Dur and Angband were huge citadels with lots of fortifications.

Otherwise smart conections

Angband stretches throughout the Iron Mountains, but the main fortress are the Thangorodrim, three huge mountains.

Mordor was a land enclosed by mountains, centered around Barad-Dur, which is, in fact, a large tower.

Isengard is encolsed by mountains for the largest part, and a wall on the other side. Again, centered around a tower.

[glassakias]

angband wasn't just a citadel, it was a whole country. Melkor didn'd bother to create wall fortifications, he just shaped the land as a giant fortress.

[Everto]

angband wasn't just a citadel, it was a whole country. Melkor didn'd bother to create wall fortifications, he just shaped the land as a giant fortress.

And before Angband... there was Utumno, the Original Fortress of Melkor