A rather good movie on the birth of the Irish Free State, that became the Republic, but is it historically accurate?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

Right well i watched "Michael Collins" the movie last night with some friends(i cant study 24 7 i guess) and we decided to watch something that, while not pertinent to me was helpful for them, as pseudo revision. It is based on the life of the man who was really responsible for the formation of the Free State, rather than Eamonn De Valera as our curriculum states(dont want another generation of IRA supporters growing up in the Republic i guess), and i was wondering if the movie itself was historically accurate. (Granted it makes a clear distinction between the Irish Volunteers and their fragmentation that resulted in the IRA and its various splinter groups)From what i can tell it is rather accurate with regards to the 1916 rising and the civil war between those who wanted a 32 county republic and the government who was ready to abandon the Catholic Minority in Ulster but can anyone spot some obvious flaws? It seems pretty solid imho but im not a modern historian and im really biased on this topic, both sides of my family fought in the civil War on the IRA side and my fathers side was active until the mid ninties, and id like to hear some informed opinions.

Overall its a great movie and there is a nice little bit of dark humour laced throughout... I would give you guys a linky but if you are so inclined its on nearly every site of that nature that i frequent...and im rather sure it would be against the TOS too

P.S. I havent forgot about my Alexandrian thread but its goint to take a little bit longer than the 5 minutes it took me to write this than my replies to Phoebus, Herakios et al

P.P.S If you like this check out the "Wind That Shakes the Barley" for an insight of the footsoldiers during the war =)

[removeduser_4536284751384]

no there are loads of diffrences between the plot and RL

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

Such as?

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's not historically accurate at all.

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

It amazes me how people repeat a stereotype and then look around expecting to be declared the most intelligent person in the world.

Dont we all love hypocracy!?
Yeah because people in cities really have access to fecking farm animals. Thats like saying American Gangster was not accurate due to the lack of morbid obesity, retardation and dungarees prevelent in the worlds view of America... Or Zulu was historically inaccurate because there were more Welsh characters in the film than any other nationality...Racism is still racism no matter which nation it is attributed to

[Augment]

Its a good film, I dont get the big fuss though when it comes to uniting the island.
Religion shouldnt be a basis to not form the Republic, yet thats the only thing thats holding Northern Ireland from becoming part of Ireland.

[Londinium]

Its a good film, I dont get the big fuss though when it comes to uniting the island.
Religion shouldnt be a basis to not form the Republic, yet thats the only thing thats holding Northern Ireland from becoming part of Ireland.

You what? even if they weren't Protestants most Unionists would still be Unionists because they are descended from Scottish and English families. Thus why they're Protestants in the first place. Religion is a poor reason to base a state upon.

[Azog 150]

No its not

[s.rwitt]

I saw "The Wind That Shakes the Barley" the other day. It was a good movie, but I wouldn't base my understanding of history on it, just like most "historical" movies.

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

The whole reason there was such a huge problem with making Ulster join the free state was mainly because Britain didnt want to have to pay taxes on their shipbuilding(Belfast was one of the busiest shipbuilding( chiefly Harland and Wolff but various other spinoff industries)for industrial and naval ports in the U.K. and if they lost it they would have to pay absorbitant taxes et cetera), the large Protestant population in Northern Ireland felt the Free State would alienate them and the country would be plunged into anarchy... Unlike the pennence laws that outlawed our language, culture and right to own land.

From the Catholic point of view no body wanted a divided country, it was all or nothing in the IRA's eyes and they didnt recognise the Free States authority over the 26 counties, and noone wanted to leave the Catholic minority at the whims of the Orange men. Which was proved right just google Gerrymandering and Bloody Sunday!

[GreyFox]

The film strays close to being Fine Gael propaganda. Collins is the great hero, De Valera is the opportunistic politician hiding in the corner who has him assassinated in an ambush, etc.

If you want a good history of the Easter Rising I recommend "Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion" by Charles Townshend.

I'm not so sure about a good book for the rest of the War for Independence or the Civil War, though there should be some really good books coming out now and in the future, as most of the people who were present there are dead (the National Archives sealed all the interviews taken, not to be released until the deaths of those who gave them).

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

The film strays close to being Fine Gael propaganda. Collins is the great hero, De Valera is the opportunistic politician hiding in the corner who has him assassinated in an ambush, etc.

If you want a good history of the Easter Rising I recommend "Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion" by Charles Townshend.

I'm not so sure about a good book for the rest of the War for Independence or the Civil War, though there should be some really good books coming out now and in the future, as most of the people who were present there are dead (the National Archives sealed all the interviews taken, not to be released until the deaths of those who gave them).

Thanks man that was the kind of response i was looking for. While it does cast Dev in a rather harsh light i think it is rather true... After all who went off to america to procure funds, taking with him Harry Boland and other important characters, while Collins brought the G men to their knees( im pretty sure G stands for King George BTW ) and kept the rebellion alive?

Ill definetely check that book out when these bloody exams are over, im counting the minutes at this stage!

Also @Azog care to elaborate on your spam? Is it historically correct or do you just not like seeing Great Britain loosing her testing grounds for colonial atrocities?

@s.rwitt I agree that The Wind That Shakes the barley is a great movie but its is a good representation of the period. From stories my Great Grandfather told me about his time in a flying column down in Sligo its a really accurate... Also i studied Irelands history in school(im irish if ya havent grasped that)and i cant really spot any large holes in either movies portrayal of the events in question

[teh.frickin.pope]

I'm not so sure about a good book for the rest of the War for Independence or the Civil War, though there should be some really good books coming out now and in the future, as most of the people who were present there are dead (the National Archives sealed all the interviews taken, not to be released until the deaths of those who gave them).

"Guerrilla Days in Ireland" by Tom Barry is a pretty great account of the flying columns, at least.

[GreyFox]

After all who went off to america to procure funds

You can't fight and win a war without money. As the old saying goes, the sinews of war are infinite money. Weapons and ammunition have to be bought and paid for. What's more valuable, a single rifleman or a thousand guns and the ammunition with which to use them? The rebellion would have fallen on its knees without hard cash.

The film was way too harsh on De Valera - the director admitted this himself in subsequent interviews. And your toeing the film's line that even the creator of the film has disassociated himself from.

The G in G-Man stands for 'Government'. The Dublin Metropolitan Police also had a G Division which was tasked with gathering intelligence on revolutionaries during the War for Independence.

[s.rwitt]

@s.rwitt I agree that The Wind That Shakes the barley is a great movie but its is a good representation of the period. From stories my Great Grandfather told me about his time in a flying column down in Sligo its a really accurate... Also i studied Irelands history in school(im irish if ya havent grasped that)and i cant really spot any large holes in either movies portrayal of the events in question

Interesting. It was an Irish film wasn't it?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

You can't fight and win a war without money. As the old saying goes, the sinews of war are infinite money. Weapons and ammunition have to be bought and paid for. What's more valuable, a single rifleman or a thousand guns and the ammunition with which to use them? The rebellion would have fallen on its knees without hard cash.

The film was way too harsh on De Valera - the director admitted this himself in subsequent interviews. And your toeing the film's line that even the creator of the film has disassociated himself from.

The G in G-Man stands for 'Government'. The Dublin Metropolitan Police also had a G Division which was tasked with gathering intelligence on revolutionaries during the War for Independence.

Granted an army marches on its stomach as the saying goes but i sincerely doubt he needed that many followers when he was orating to the crowds... As i recall didnt the GAA do something similar and ended up losing more than three quarters of their delegates(ya know stayed in the states)Thanks for that... I honestly thought it was to do with working for King George or something

On my anti De Valera stance its rather hard to be sympathetic when my family was excommunicated by his actions... A hell of a lot of my family emigrated and changed their name so they could recieve the seven sacrements and be buried in a Catholic graveyard...

"Guerrilla Days in Ireland" by Tom Barry is a pretty great account of the flying columns, at least.

Now its on my summer reading list man thanks =)

Interesting. It was an Irish film wasn't it?

Yeah down the west of Ireland...