Invention of the fork, why so late?

[Boer]

From what I've read and heard, with out deep investigation, it appears that the fork was invented either in 11th/12th century Italy/Byzantium but did not reach England until the 17th Century and was not commonly used until the 18th. Still, tridents and pitchforks appear to have a longer histories and, in some ways, are just giant forks put to different uses.

So why did it take so long for forks to be invented and accepted? Was it just a case of the difficulty in making them outweighing any advantage over knifes, spoons and fingers?

[Othniel]

Sometimes it takes a while for the "duh!" moment to happen. On a similarly interesting note, I know someone (in my intellectual property class, as irony would have it) who participated (he was 12 at the time) in the invention of a plastic cereal spoon with a spiral handle that would sit on one's finger.

[Mangalore]

From what I've read and heard, with out deep investigation, it appears that the fork was invented either in 11th/12th century Italy/Byzantium but did not reach England until the 17th Century and was not commonly used until the 18th. Still, tridents and pitchforks appear to have a longer histories and, in some ways, are just giant forks put to different uses.

So why did it take so long for forks to be invented and accepted? Was it just a case of the difficulty in making them outweighing any advantage over knifes, spoons and fingers?

For forks to be useful eating culture had to develop to make it inacceptable to eat with your fingers first. There is no pressing necessity for it at all. Only when people felt it intolerable to eat your food with your fingers they sought some tool to remedy this.

So there had to be a cultural change creating the necessity for it first.

[Hounf of Culan]

For forks to be useful eating culture had to develop to make it inacceptable to eat with your fingers first. There is no pressing necessity for it at all. Only when people felt it intolerable to eat your food with your fingers they sought some tool to remedy this.

So there had to be a cultural change creating the necessity for it first.

This is the reason. It's funny you created this thread actually as I'm currently reading Leon Kass' Hungry Soul and he talks about this very point. I suggest you check it out for a more indepth look. Basically what Mangalore said is right, we only developed forks because people started to think it was gross to eat with your fingers, it's really an interesting topic. We take a lot of things about our manners and sense of propriety for granted nowadays when most of it was consciously invented at some point in the past.

[SigniferOne]

For forks to be useful eating culture had to develop to make it inacceptable to eat with your fingers first. There is no pressing necessity for it at all. Only when people felt it intolerable to eat your food with your fingers they sought some tool to remedy this.

That's not a sufficient analysis however. There are plenty of Roman spoons, many of them of silver and fine quality, found all over Europe.




Speaking of which, you can see there are forks there too.

[Mangalore]

That's not a sufficient analysis however. There are plenty of Roman spoons, many of them of silver and fine quality, found all over Europe.

Spoons != forks so more sufficient than your counterargument.

...
Speaking of which, you can see there are forks there too.

The point was that forks were not used for eating as such before. Most stuff Romans ate was essentially fast food. Esspecially the lower classes we really hear about lived off such stuff. Aside of a spoon there wouldn't be not much need for forks. The usus that everybody at a main meal with fork and knife wasn't that common for millenia. It an exception, not the rule.

I think the first use of the fork in later times was that the gentlemen passed the food to the ladies to their right or side or something so the latter didn't have to make their hands/dresses dirty. Or something.

[SigniferOne]

Spoons != forks so more sufficient than your counterargument.

Spoons don't have to = forks to discredit the argument that the social prerequisites for fork-eating didn't come for millenia. Clearly the argument that eating only by hand was the practice under the Roman empire does not stand up to the hoards of spoons. And as I say, there were tons of forks on top of even that.

The point was that forks were not used for eating as such before. Most stuff Romans ate was essentially fast food. Esspecially the lower classes we really hear about lived off such stuff. Aside of a spoon there wouldn't be not much need for forks. The usus that everybody at a main meal with fork and knife wasn't that common for millenia.

What's common about it? Who other than the upper classes sits down at their main meal with fork and knife?

[Mangalore]

Spoons don't have to = forks to discredit the argument that the social prerequisites for fork-eating didn't come for millenia. Clearly the argument that eating only by hand was the practice under the Roman empire does not stand up to the hoards of spoons. And as I say, there were tons of forks on top of even that.

The obvious difference - as established - being that even Roman aristocracy would only use fork, knife or spoon for specific meals, go in an actual restaurant or visit your parents or whatever for the difference as by now it is usus that everyone in western civilization is eating all dishes in a decent meal with fork, knife and spoon and only select exceptions with their fingers. This change came along rather recently and developed after a prolonged period where people saw absolutely no point in any tools for eating other than possibly the spoon and a similarily long period where only select classes in society would choose to eat with these utensils.

[René Artois]

What Mangalore said. Stuff gets invented when it's needed. Like how we haven't yet seen a car that guides itself into walls and other hard objects. Yet.

[Tiberius Tosi]

Many countries (like England) thought a fork was a very girli'ish utensil. They felt that eating with their hands and the spoon and knife when necessary was a much more "manly" and convenient way to eat. They were slow to learn that their hands were not exactly clean things I suppose, Italians were quicker to learn that their hands were nasty.

There is always a story of an Englishman in the 17th century bringing forks back to England from Italy and hosting a dinner party, at which everyone tried out the fork and all agreed that it was too inconvenient. When he attempted to prove them wrong by picking up a piece of meat with the fork, it slipped off and fell on the floor and he was lookin' like a fool with his meat on the ground.

[Hounf of Culan]

^^ Wouldn't that just imply that the Romans had notions of propriety, very similar to our own today, concerning eating and that in the Medieval times society was more base and so had to reinvent the fork?

[0N3]

Ok, so romans invented fork then barbarian invasion then fork reinvented?

[DAVIDE]

Well lets start... just after the nomenclator aka slave announced or called the people invited at cenae, the ministratores aka servants started to bring dishes to fellow diners, those dishes could be smooth aka patina or patella or soup bowl aka catinus, the glasses without handle the so called poculum or the cups and other instruments like knives, toothpick etc. The guests of cenae were usual to eat just with their hands but in case of liquid or creamy recipes, they were supplied by spoons of different size and form as the ligula and the trulla. Considering Romans were usual eating majorly with hands, the ministratores at the end of every ferculum aka course were usual to clean the hands of fellow diners before passing to next ferculum. Fellow diners were supplied by napkins too that were used as tablecloth or to take home remains of food or gifts aka apophoreta, sometime distributed by the owner of the domus. Cenae were usual to start with gustatio aka starter and made by easy digestable meals as olives, eggs, mushrooms, vegetables and oysters accompanied by wine mixed with honey aka mulsum. At the end of the gustatio we have the real cena, made by many fercula of meat etc and then the libatio aka libation in honor of Lares aka deities guardians of the house blablabla. The conclusive part of cena was made by secundae mensae aka dessert and by traditional ritual of commissatio aka the great wine drinking of all fellow diners, while listening to some kind of spectacle, concerts or readings

[Helm]

Perhaps the fork was invented initially to stop fingers from being burnt.

We still eat fish and chips, burgers, hotdogs with our hands though, it's not entirely against our culture.

[Boer]

Perhaps the fork was invented initially to stop fingers from being burnt.

I had that thought myself.

[Hounf of Culan]

Perhaps the fork was invented initially to stop fingers from being burnt.

We still eat fish and chips, burgers, hotdogs with our hands though, it's not entirely against our culture.

The fork's primary purpose is to civilize eating and separate us from the animals who eat with their hands. It's why you don't see chips, burgers, hotdogs etc at any fancy dinner and anyone who styles themselves a proper and civilized eater would probably steer away from those things even in a more informal setting.

[Herakleios]

For the same reason chopsticks were never invented in the west. A tool and it's use only become obvious once it has been invented.

[Gelgoog]

You all think your so advanced....but ask yourself...how do you eat a snickers....with your hands?

[Tiberius Tosi]

You all think your so advanced....but ask yourself...how do you eat a snickers....with your hands?

Lol, next you will be eating a donut with a fork and knife (if you are referencing Seinfeld lol).

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

I never thought this video could ever be useful, but with all this talk about chop sticks and Seinfeld and the invention of forks, this had to be posted: