Iraq: The Polling Booths open again.

[bigfootedfred]

More than 6,000 polling stations have opened on time amid tight security in Iraq, where people are voting in a referendum on a new constitution.

Iraqi troops and police, along with US-led foreign forces, have been deployed to try to prevent insurgents disrupting the referendum.

Despite this, a policeman was injured near a polling station in western Baghdad when a roadside bomb went off.

There have been other minor attacks by insurgents in Ramadi and near Basra.

Iraq's borders have been closed to non-essential traffic.

Private cars are banned from roads in many areas, and only a few people could be seen heading for the heavily-guarded schools-turned-polling stations.

Overnight, insurgents attacked power lines leading to the capital Baghdad, causing black-outs, but electricity was restored before dawn.

President Jalal Talabani and Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jafaari were among the first to cast their ballots.

The president's and prime minister's vote inside the fortified Green Zone was shown live on Iraqi television.

"I voted Yes and I urge all Iraqis, no matter their different ethnicities and religions... to vote Yes to the constitution," Mr Talabani told reporters.

The BBC's James Reynolds in Baghdad says Kurds and the majority Shia Arabs are expected to approve the constitution, while Sunni Arabs - who make up a disaffected minority - are likely to either vote No or stay at home.

Sunni leaders fear the current proposals may lead the country to split, with a Kurdish north and Shia south, depriving Sunni Arabs of access to the country's oil resources.

In Washington, US Vice-President Dick Cheney said the US expected the constitution to be approved.

Public holiday

Some 15.5 million voters are expected to walk to the polling stations to register their view on the charter. Polls are set to close at 1800 (1500 GMT).

The election commission says it has managed to set up polling stations even in the regions worst-affected by violence, including the vast Anbar province, seen as the heartland of the insurgency.

Tens of thousands of troops and policemen have been drafted in to guard polling stations.


CONSTITUTION'S KEY POINTS
Iraq to be federal, parliamentary democracy
Official languages to be Arabic and Kurdish
Official religion to be Islam but religious freedoms guaranteed
Equal rights for all
Independent judiciary
Elections every four years

Q&A: Iraq referendum

A four-day public holiday is under way across the country, shutting government offices and schools. Baghdad airport has also been closed.

Private vehicles have been banned from the streets to prevent car bombers from targeting polling stations, and many voters will have to go on foot to cast their ballots.

Much of Baghdad was blacked-out for hours after dark as people broke the Ramadan fast.

"It was sabotage near Baiji," a town 180km (112 miles) of Baghdad, Electricity Ministry spokesman Mahmoud Saadi told the Reuters news agency.

Earlier, at least three polling stations in Baghdad came under fire from gunmen in passing cars, police said. No one was injured.


This constitution is a sham and will not prevent a civil war
John, Boise Idaho USA

Iraq constitution: Your views

Unidentified gunmen also attacked three offices of the largest Sunni Arab political party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, after it dropped its opposition to the draft text.

The BBC's Richard Galpin in Baghdad says the controversy surrounding the draft constitution has made campaigning much more adversarial than expected.

It has been easier for the Yes camp who dominate government to get their message across on state-controlled media than for the Sunni minority, our correspondent adds.

If voters in three of Iraq's 18 provinces muster a two-thirds majority against the constitution, it will fail.

The Sunnis are dominant in four provinces and so therefore effectively hold a power of veto if they turn out in large numbers to vote against it.

If the text passes, it will provide the basis for parliamentary elections.

The results of the referendum will not be declared for several days.

Link

well...whole variety of topics we could talk on here.
im watching the 7am news now. polling booths have been open a few hours, sunni regions have only had thin streams of people by all accounts, but much of the day is left to go.

is this how its going to be?
voters escorted to polling booths by armed soliders?

what does the iraq Constution hold for the future of iraq...
if its voted yes, will it change anything?
will this start to stablise iraq?

open disscusion but stay on topic

i.e. the future of iraq, not the rights/wrongs of the invasion.


edit: some reading material
The Iraqi Draft Constitution

[1{H][NA]

Don't mean to sound pessimistic, but what will this accomplish? there is still no clear objective in iraq. Bush says he want freedom and democracy, but these are all very abstract objectives. how are they going to enforce the constitution? i doubt the insurgents care if they have a consitution or not, most are not even iraquis. govt is helpless if there is no one to enforce it. and it seems that the security forces are getting shot down faster than they can be trained, and are suposedly infiltrateted by insurgents. i dont mean to sound like such a downer, but im just very skeptical about what this consitution will accomplish.

anyways, heres to hoping for future successes in Iraq.

[Farnan]

There constitution is not the Theocracy everyone thought it would be. Also a constitution will give the Iraqi army something to fight for. I actually read the first 20 some pages of their constitution, and it seems they got some of their ideas from the U.S. constitution.

[Tom Paine]

Also a constitution will give the Iraqi army something to fight for.

Or against....

[Farnan]

This is the new Iraqi army, loyal to the new government. It will give something else for the insurgents and the terrorists to fight against, but they don't need another reason.

[Tom Paine]

Like the security forces in iraq are completely loyal to the government?

[PacSubCom]

Iraq is already a democratic country. The constitution will be affirmed and then that's it?

The questions remain: Will Iraq be souvereign? Will the oil be controlled by a souvereign people, or will the government take their orders from Crawford, Texas?

Does the US really want a souvereign Iraq with its own agenda? Are the enchanting Condi Rice and "**** yourself" Dick Cheney dreaming of a strong Iraq, with friendly relations to Iran, the country the US wants most isolated (after Cuba)? Will the US allow the Shiites in the South to stir up sentiments in their Saudi brethren across the border, destabilizing the allied Saudi dictatorship? Does the US want the oil producing region to become souvereign and independent of the US? Will Bush actually keep his "vague promises of withdrawal, rather than [giving] a firm timeline" he made in the face of a democratically elected Iraqi government that called for it? An independent, democratic Iraq would rearm, or even develop weapons of mass destruction, to defend itself against the regional enemy of the Arab world, a nuclear-tipped Israel. Will it come to that? The souvereign Iraqis want the US to go: Will America grant them their wish, demolish it's new military bases and go packing? Will the US government stop assuming they know better than Iraqis what's good for Iraqis?

[Farnan]

Article 23 Section 3 -(a) An Iraqi has the right to ownership anywhere in Iraq and no one else has the right to own real estate except what is exempted by law

Seems like the war for oil theory is a bit nollified. Also:

Article 40 Section 1 - the followers of every religion and sect are free in: (a) the practice of their religious rights, including the (Shiite) Husseiniya Rites.

There goes the theocracy.

[PacSubCom]

Seems like the war for oil theory is a bit nollified. Also:

You are quoting the wrong passage, dude

Article (109): Oil and gas is the property of all the Iraqi people in all the regions and provinces.

See? THIS nullifies the oil argument.


What else is in there? Let's look at Article (110):

1st - The federal government will administer oil and gas extracted from current fields in cooperation with the governments of the producing regions and provinces on condition that the revenues will be distributed fairly in a manner compatible with the demographical distribution all over the country. A quota should be defined for a specified time for affected regions that were deprived in an unfair way by the former regime or later on, in a way to ensure balanced development in different parts of the country. This should be regulated by law.

"Current fields." Hmm. My party contacts tell me that these current fields are only the 17 developed of the 80 discovered fields in Iraq all in all. And that the undeveloped fields comprise 2/3 of the Iraqi oil reserves. These "current fields" are serviced by the state owned oil company, the one that is scheduled to be privatized this year...hmmm.

So what about the rest, the undeveloped fields? And the many fields that are still to be discovered? It's suspected that there is lots of oil as yet undiscovered.

Let's have a look at paragraph (110) 2):

2nd - The federal government and the governments of the producing regions and provinces together will draw up the necessary strategic policies to develop oil and gas wealth to bring the greatest benefit for the Iraqi people, relying on the most modern techniques of market principles and encouraging investment.

Hmm... "relying on the most modern techniques of market principles and encouraging investment."

That means they are getting foreign oil companies in to develop these fields. Why not doing it themselves? The know-how to develop oil fields is already there, or they could buy it. They could use some of the oil revenue they already create.

Hmm... Privatization of the oil industry. Privatization -> most of the revenue goes somewhere, while the companies are hopefully paying taxes. My party contacts tell me that this is 15%.

A privatization of the oil industry means that the money goes into private hands, not to the Iraqi state.

So, the Oil belongs to the Iraqi people, but the oil companies are pumping it and selling it on the market. Seems like Cheney got what he wanted.

Also, there is no mention of the occupying forces. Strange.

There goes the theocracy.

Maybe, but here:

1st -- Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:


(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.

The "undisputed rules of Islam". What is that?

[Erik]

The "undisputed rules of Islam". What is that?

All rules of Islam that AREN'T disputed i.e. the laws that Sunni, Shiites and all other muslims all agree on (if any exist....)

[stop-3]

Indeed. The present mess in mesopotamia makes the vietnam enterprise look simple. People who support the Iraq imbroglio are even more deluded than those of us who supported the vietnam mess. However, there is one great diabolical difference. THE WORSHIP OF THE MOTOR CAR. ALL HAIL THE MOTOR CAR. People are evil and selfish. In the end, they support things that are conveniant to them (despite all protestations). Bush knows this, as does his tiny minion, blair. Evil selfish people who love to drive about in their great big motor cars by their very act of doing this fuel the enterprise in Iraq, for their lust of driving about in great big vehicules knows no end and they will support the mad endevour no matter what. Such is human nature. Example : how many of the loonies driving around go home and watch some telly programme depicting the plight of millions of trees cut down all over the place and day 'oooh, how terrible'? Another example : All the vegetarians I know drive around in great big motor cars and they think themseves moraly superior to non-vegetarians, even if we do not own a motor car! It is no good trying to explain to them that their position is not tenable, as they are like religiuos fanatics. The worship of motor cars is a very powerful religion. Many years ago I realised why this is so. It is something to do with power.

[1{H][NA]

Article 23 Section 3 -(a) An Iraqi has the right to ownership anywhere in Iraq and no one else has the right to own real estate except what is exempted by law

unless this means that oil production areas are exempt from private ownership and are govt owned, and the govt would most likely work for the guys in haliburton.

i think the goal in iraq is to make another s.korea, a puppet govt giving the US a strong foothold in another troubled area. which isnt all bad, but we'll see.

[meh_cd]

Article 23 Section 3 -(a) An Iraqi has the right to ownership anywhere in Iraq and no one else has the right to own real estate except what is exempted by law

unless this means that oil production areas are exempt from private ownership and are govt owned, and the govt would most likely work for the guys in haliburton.

i think the goal in iraq is to make another s.korea, a puppet govt giving the US a strong foothold in another troubled area. which isnt all bad, but we'll see.

Since when is South Korea a puppet?

[danzig]

Like the security forces in iraq are completely loyal to the government?

no but most are loyal to their people, where they live etc and as long as innocent iraqis are targeted by insurgents (whether outside or sunnis) that will give them a reason to stay loyal. Remember most of people dying in Iraq due to the insurgents are not US troops but Iraqis themselves, if given the choice between supporting the goverment and supporting insurgents probably safe assumption most will side with the goverment. What will happen in Iraq? No idea but without taking steps forward we wont ever find out and constitution being approved is a step forward. Obviously turnout is important, and its clear alot of Sunnis are going to sit it out but as long as a good majority turnout (most likely Kurds and Shias will have large turn outs) then its a good thing. The Sunnis are going to have to come to grips they are the minority in the country, they wont ever have the level of power (and the abuse of that power) in their hands again, they should compromise and find a place to work inside Iraq otherwise its eventually going to boil over where Shias and Kurds decide enough is enough.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Indeed. The present mess in mesopotamia makes the vietnam enterprise look simple. People who support the Iraq imbroglio are even more deluded than those of us who supported the vietnam mess. However, there is one great diabolical difference. THE WORSHIP OF THE MOTOR CAR. ALL HAIL THE MOTOR CAR. People are evil and selfish. In the end, they support things that are conveniant to them (despite all protestations). Bush knows this, as does his tiny minion, blair. Evil selfish people who love to drive about in their great big motor cars by their very act of doing this fuel the enterprise in Iraq, for their lust of driving about in great big vehicules knows no end and they will support the mad endevour no matter what. Such is human nature. Example : how many of the loonies driving around go home and watch some telly programme depicting the plight of millions of trees cut down all over the place and day 'oooh, how terrible'? Another example : All the vegetarians I know drive around in great big motor cars and they think themseves moraly superior to non-vegetarians, even if we do not own a motor car! It is no good trying to explain to them that their position is not tenable, as they are like religiuos fanatics. The worship of motor cars is a very powerful religion. Many years ago I realised why this is so. It is something to do with power.

Okay, all I got out of that is that humans are evil now for driving cars. Would you like me to ride my bicycle to school 20 miles?

[TheKwas]

S.Korea was a puppet, prior to the democratic movement, but that has nothing to do with anything.

Frankly I'm just glad that Iraq is praticing democracy in more ways than just "Pick your ruler".

[TheKwas]

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[Farnan]

The part of the constitution about encouraging market and investment could be that the oil fields will be run like a corporation, with foreign investors buying the equivalent of stock. Remember only Iraqis can own property in Iraq under that constitution.

About the undispute rule of Islam, it is simple: In America we have Christian holidays as federal holidays. We use christian sayings before many of our government actions. In Iraq replace Christian and Islam and you get what I think that part means. It means also that no one can try to remove the symbols of Islam from their government, like people in the US try to remove symbols of christianity.

[PacSubCom]

The part of the constitution about encouraging market and investment could be that the oil fields will be run like a corporation, with foreign investors buying the equivalent of stock. Remember only Iraqis can own property in Iraq under that constitution.

And I am Marie of Romania. Would it be difficult for a multi trillion dollar corporation like Chevron to find an Iraqi to own the real estate for them? Or an Iraqi front company? Legally?

And if foreign investors buy the equivalent of stock, they would like a share of the revenue. The more stock you own, the more of the company you own. Privatized business. Exactly what I'm talking about. But that is not the investment they mean. The foreign companies will do it, they are the ones who "invest", meaning the drilling, the exploration, the pumping and the transportation, and they will reap the benefits. That's the meaning of investment, and that is how it is done everywhere. Except in highly protected economies, and Iraq is not one of those. It is advertised as a premier example of free market values. That are the "most modern market principles" the constitution is about.

[Tiwaz]

First of all this constitution is just a huge pile of compromises. Three separate, and mutually hostile, ethnic groups to appease and appeasement to one is insult to another. Whopee. In short, nobody is happy with result.

Next, Farnan, do you HONESTLY think it would be necessarily "good" if they take into their constitution example from US constitution? I think it's actually bad. It kind of underlines the current puppet system in practice. Would YOU like your nation to have constitution which has taken example from founding document of foreign occupier who controls your home?


And finally, about insurgents and iraqi military... First, those who claim majority of resistance not being iraqi go and PROVE IT. Even Pentagon seems to agree these days that majority of movement is formed from locals. That goes to the point 1 of my text where I make mention of 3 separate and mutually hostile ethnic groups. Same goes for security forces. They are indeed loyal to their people BUT their people do not come with term "iraqi" but are described with words like "sunni", "shia" and "kurd". They are loyal to their ethnic group.

Time tells but this constitution, specially thanks to foreign influences, isn't most likely worth the paper it's written on.