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  1. #1

    Default Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Secret of the Lusitania: Arms find challenges Allied claims it was solely a passenger ship


    By Sam Greenhill



    Her sinking with the loss of almost 1,200 lives caused such outrage that it propelled the U.S. into the First World War.
    But now divers have revealed a dark secret about the cargo carried by the Lusitania on its final journey in May 1915.
    Munitions they found in the hold suggest that the Germans had been right all along in claiming the ship was carrying war materials and was a legitimate military target.

    Doomed: A contemporary view of the sinking of the Lusitania off Ireland in May 1915

    The Cunard vessel, steaming from New York to Liverpool, was sunk eight miles off the Irish coast by a U-boat.
    Maintaining that the Lusitania was solely a passenger vessel, the British quickly accused the 'Pirate Hun' of
    slaughtering civilians.

    The disaster was used to whip up anti-German anger, especially in the U.S., where 128 of the 1,198 victims came from.

    A hundred of the dead were children, many of them under two.
    Robert Lansing, the U.S. secretary of state, later wrote that the sinking gave him the 'conviction we would ultimately become the ally of Britain'.
    Americans were even told, falsely, that German children were given a day off school to celebrate the sinking of the Lusitania.
    The disaster inspired a multitude of recruitment posters demanding vengeance for the victims.



    One, famously showing a young mother slipping below the waves with her baby, carried the simple slogan 'Enlist'.







    Two years later, the Americans joined the Allies as an associated power - a decision that turned the war decisively against Germany.
    The diving team estimates that around four million rounds of U.S.-manufactured Remington .303 bullets lie in the Lusitania's hold at a depth of 300ft.
    The Germans had insisted the Lusitania - the fastest liner in the North Atlantic - was being used as a weapons ship to break the blockade Berlin had been trying to impose around Britain since the outbreak of hostilities in August 1914.


    Winston Churchill, who was first Lord of the Admiralty and has long been suspected of knowing more about the circumstances of the attack than he let on in public, wrote in a confidential letter shortly before the sinking that some German submarine attacks were to be welcomed.
    He said:
    'It is most important to attract neutral shipping to our shores, in the hope especially of embroiling the U.S. with Germany.
    'For our part we want the traffic - the more the better and if some of it gets into trouble, better still.'
    Hampton Sides, a writer with Men's Vogue in the U.S., witnessed the divers' discovery.
    He said: '
    They are bullets that were expressly manufactured to kill Germans in World War I - bullets that British officials in Whitehall, and American officials in Washington, have long denied were aboard the Lusitania.'
    The discovery may help explain why the 787ft Lusitania sank within 18 minutes of a single German torpedo slamming into its hull.

    Some of the 764 survivors reported a second explosion which might have been munitions going off.
    Gregg Bemis, an American businessman who owns the rights to the wreck and is funding its exploration, said: 'Those four million rounds of .303s were not just some private hunter's stash.
    'Now that we've found it, the British can't deny any more that there was ammunition on board. That raises the question of what else was on board.
    'There were literally tons and tons of stuff stored in unrefrigerated cargo holds that were dubiously marked cheese, butter and oysters.
    'I've always felt there were some significant high explosives in the holds - shells, powder, gun cotton - that were set off by the torpedo and the inflow of water. That's what sank the ship.'
    Mr Bemis is planning to commission further dives next year in a full-scale forensic examination of the wreck off County Cork.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nger-ship.html





    Edit:
    According to the german submarine captain, he fired a single torpedo to give passengers
    the needed time to evacuate the ship. To his surprise the ship sank within 18 minutes,
    accompanied by a series of explosions. Now we know why.
    Last edited by Amagi; May 02, 2010 at 01:55 AM.
    I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    The secret mischiefs that I set abroach

    I lay unto the grievous charge of others.


    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

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  2. #2
    Lonck's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    it has been known for some time now that the Lusitania carried ammunition, no? That has been my impression at least. Yeah ppl don't like it when you call them idiots, they will get defensive.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    I didnt´t call anyone "idiot" in these forums. But some folks here rather bash the messenger than dealing with inconvenient facts.

    The english will have to seriously reconsider their judgement on their national hero Churchill, and the americans can add yet another war to the loooooong list of wars they´ve been tricked into.
    Gulf of Tonkin (vietnam) or WMDs (Iraq) to name just two.

    It ain´t me you should be angry with, and I am sorry when I make you feel like idiots, but the truth needs to be told.
    I find it despictable to attack me for telling the truth.

    If there would have been people with the guts to speak out in former times, millions of lives could have been spared.
    Last edited by Amagi; May 02, 2010 at 03:40 AM.
    I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    The secret mischiefs that I set abroach

    I lay unto the grievous charge of others.


    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

    With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;

    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

    Shakespeare´s "Richard III"

  4. #4
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Like the millions of lives that were lost in the Holocaust. I mean no. That never happened. Silly me...

    And dude, a nuetral vessel being attacked by a foreign government is no laughing matter no matter what the circumstances. It's a declaration of war plain and simple. I don't know what ground you're trying to break here, but I guess Amurica is always the bad guy in your eyes so whatever. Have believing what you do. And i say believe because you believe it, you haven't deduced it and you aren't of the opinion, you believe this you spout like it's a ing religion and it very well may be for you.

    Like I said before, stop trolling.
    Last edited by Border Patrol; May 02, 2010 at 04:17 AM. Reason: expanding

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Quote Originally Posted by Border Patrol View Post
    Like the millions of lives that were lost in the Holocaust. I mean no. That never happened. Silly me...

    And dude, a nuetral vessel being attacked by a foreign government is no laughing matter no matter what the circumstances. It's a declaration of war plain and simple. I don't know what ground you're trying to break here, but I guess Amurica is always the bad guy in your eyes so whatever. Have believing what you do. And i say believe because you believe it, you haven't deduced it and you aren't of the opinion, you believe this you spout like it's a ing religion and it very well may be for you.

    Like I said before, stop trolling.

    It was not a neutral vessel, it was a British vessel. It was carrying American passengers, but that does not make the ship any less British. It was also carrying munitions (artillery fuses I believe), therefore it was a legitimate military target.

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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    This isn't exactly a new discovery.

    At all.

  7. #7
    ♔hammeredalways♔'s Avatar Darthmod Moderator
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Hi Amagi - as several have said this already out there, equally I'm not certain why we would want to re-evaluate Churchill, if he was trying to drum up support it suceeded, applaud him old chap.

    As for the US I'm sure you don't seriously believe they are drawn into anything they did not to become embroiled in?, and who are you National heroes?
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    lordoftheT's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    As others have said this has been known for a long time.

    Edit: Really the only way I could see this a being political is if the article went on to disuss whether carrying arms and munitions makes a passenger ship a legitimate target and even that has been done to death I think. But instead it seems that the Daily Mail potraying old news as new in an effort to be controversial.

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    Lysimachus's Avatar Spirit Cleric
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    This goes to all members here, if you have nothing constructive to say then don't post. If you stop replying to all of Amagi's threads, he'll get bored and go away.

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    ♔hammeredalways♔'s Avatar Darthmod Moderator
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Hi Lysimachus - whilst I don't tend to follow the OP's posts unless they touch an area I have interest in I believe that if he spam's, posts useless threads etc., or otherwise infringes the site rules then the Moderators will deal with him accordingly.

    As they will any other poster who posts spam or similar or infringes the rules, unless I am mistaken that is how the process works - until that time then each poster can make their own mind up if that is ok with you.

    I'm not sure if there is history between you and the poster or that you may not agree with his posts/views, and quite frankly I do not care, so in the interim perhaps you should follow your own advice
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    Lysimachus's Avatar Spirit Cleric
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    I'm not sure if there is history between you and the poster or that you may not agree with his posts/views, and quite frankly I do not care, so in the interim perhaps you should follow your own advice
    No, I don't have a particularly tumultuous history with him, it's just that if people stop posting in his revisionist threads then he will stop posting. I just wanted tell the members in this thread this in the hope that they would take the advice and stop replying to the OP's threads.

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    ♔hammeredalways♔'s Avatar Darthmod Moderator
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    why thank you for the clarifcation but generally I would say that threads with limited span or content die quite quickly of their own accord. If the OP (not necessary a reference to this thread or this OP) fails to maintain the debate or offer any form of insight the thread also goes the same way.

    I would add that I enjoy most of the threads you start and the lively debate that can evolve, so credit to you - if this thread lacks that then either the OP should/will inject something new or it will go the graveyard, or you could enlighten him on how to construct a thread that will have longevity
    Knight of the binge-drinking-Kebab-shop-vomiting-taxi rank-punch-up? 32nd degree

  13. #13

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    I honestly tought this was old news?
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  14. #14
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishoss View Post
    I honestly tought this was old news?
    It is.

    I think it might even go back to the '20s

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    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    To be honest I doubt it was purely this sinking which caused the US to enter the war, if as said in the OP, they only joined 2 years afterwards.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Of course you are right, it was not just the Lusitania- albeit she represented a great propagand tool that time , and helped to shift the pro-german stance in the US significantly.

    As WW1, and WW2 are told so onehandedly, and as this mindsetset allowed half a century of "righteous" wars all around the globe,the toppling of other people´s governments, terror, invasions... aso asf, I found it legit to hint and the lies and deceit that already prevailed in WW1.

    On world war 2, I made a lengthy thread already showing another perception of what the true sequence of aggression was, on WW1 I didnt want to go in lengths, but singled out that particular incident.

    And propably many (silent readers here) did not know about the Lusitania, for me it was kinda big news...


    I hope that an ever grwoing number starts questioning the roles of their governments critically, as history as it´s told, is anything but a big fat lie.
    Last edited by Amagi; May 02, 2010 at 08:26 AM.
    I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    The secret mischiefs that I set abroach

    I lay unto the grievous charge of others.


    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

    With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;

    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

    Shakespeare´s "Richard III"

  17. #17

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    I've know of no legitimate source that calls WW1 a glorious and righteous war.

    Most believe that it was a terrible conflict that need not have happened, and was caused by a multitude of factors, putting blame on both sides.
    Sons of Queen Dido, Warriors of Libye (EB AAR)
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    I just know the epicness will blow your minds!!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Hm, I read the "Germany started 2 world wars!" phrase all to often...
    The issue is far more complex, and I am not going to debate the true reasons and main wirepullers of WW1, as it would derange the thread too much.
    I just hope that people start to question the wars going on when seeing the lies that were used back then. Because false flag attacks repsectively provoked attacks have been used all too often since then. Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods... or even Pearl Harbor, where the exact same trick was used to get the US into the next world war.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Now please no pearl harbor discussion, I know many disagree here. Lets grant each other a different opinion on this one ok?

    Kind regards!
    Amagi
    Last edited by Amagi; May 02, 2010 at 09:26 AM.
    I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    The secret mischiefs that I set abroach

    I lay unto the grievous charge of others.


    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

    With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;

    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

    Shakespeare´s "Richard III"

  19. #19
    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    Quote Originally Posted by Amagi View Post
    On world war 2, I made a lengthy thread already showing another perception of what the true sequence of aggression was
    Yeah, with half-truths, nazi propaganda and simple lies you 'proved' that Nazis did not start the war. "Great".

    You refer to it as some kind of academic article. When the reality is, that it is so blatantly ignorant, extremely biased, illogical and counter factual that the fact that you spend 10 hours on that 'gem' is amazing. Perhaps googling images to 'support' your article with a graphic content took you some time (you failed at it anyway), but even so, in 10 hours and endless information and sources internet and books provide, a sane human being should be able to write an article with at least minimal credibility.
    Last edited by intel; May 02, 2010 at 09:41 AM.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Lusitania- History of WW1 needs to be re-evaluated

    I posted the transcript of a documentary, and tried to spice up the reading (lots of text) with some images.

    The rest of your comment is hatefull bolony.
    I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    The secret mischiefs that I set abroach

    I lay unto the grievous charge of others.


    And thus I clothe my naked villainy

    With odd old ends, stol'n out of holy writ;

    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

    Shakespeare´s "Richard III"

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