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    Comes Limitis
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    Default The expiring date on our current way of capitalism.

    http://thecynicaleconomist.com/?p=8883

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    20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable
    By Paul B. Farrell

    November 02, 2009 - ARROYO GRANDE, Calif. (MarketWatch) Oct. 20, 2009 -- Jack Bogle published "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" four years ago. The battle's over. The sequel should be titled: "Capitalism Died a Lost Soul." Worse, we've lost "America's Soul." And, worldwide, the consequences will be catastrophic.

    That's why a man like Hong Kong contrarian economist Marc Faber warns in his Doom, Boom & Gloom Report: "The future will be a total disaster, with a collapse of our capitalistic system as we know it today." No, not just another meltdown, another bear-market recession like the one recently triggered by Wall Street's too-greedy-to-fail banks. Faber is warning that the entire system of capitalism will collapse. Get it? The engine driving the great "American Economic Empire" for 233 years will collapse, a total disaster, a destiny we created.
    OK, deny it. But I'll bet you have a nagging feeling that maybe he's right, that the end may be near. I have for a long time: I wrote a column back in 1997: "Battling for the Soul of Wall Street." My interest in "The Soul" -- what Jung called the "collective unconscious" -- dates back to my Ph.D. dissertation, "Modern Man in Search of His Soul," a title borrowed from Jung's 1933 book, "Modern Man in Search of a Soul." This battle has been on my mind since my days at Morgan Stanley 30 years ago, witnessing the decline.
    Has capitalism lost its soul? Guys like Bogle and Faber sense it. Read more about the soul in physicist Gary Zukav's "The Seat of the Soul," Thomas Moore's "Care of the Soul" and sacred texts.
    But for Wall Street and American capitalism, use your gut. You know something's very wrong: A year ago, too-greedy-to-fail banks were insolvent, in a near-death experience. Now, magically, they're back to business as usual, arrogant, pocketing outrageous bonuses while Main Street sacrifices, and unemployment and foreclosures continue rising as tight credit, inflation and skyrocketing federal debt are killing taxpayers.
    Yes, Wall Street has lost its moral compass. It created the mess, but now, like vultures, Wall Streeters are capitalizing on the carcass. They have lost all sense of fiduciary duty, ethical responsibility and public obligation.
    Here are the Top 20 reasons American capitalism has lost its soul:
    1. Collapse is now inevitable

    Capitalism has been the engine driving America and the global economies for over two centuries. Faber predicts its collapse will trigger global "wars, massive government-debt defaults, and the impoverishment of large segments of Western society." Faber knows that capitalism is not working, capitalism has peaked, and the collapse of capitalism is "inevitable."
    When? He hesitates: "But what I don't know is whether this final collapse, which is inevitable, will occur tomorrow, or in five or 10 years, and whether it will occur with the Dow at 100,000 and gold at $50,000 per ounce or even confiscated, or with the Dow at 3,000 and gold at $1,000." But the end is inevitable, a historical imperative.
    2. Nobody's planning for a 'Black Swan'

    While the timing may be uncertain, the trigger is certain. Societies collapse because they fail to plan ahead, cannot act fast enough when a catastrophic crisis hits. Think "Black Swan" and read evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond's "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed."
    A crisis hits. We act surprised. Shouldn't. But it's too late: "Civilizations share a sharp curve of decline. Indeed, a society's demise may begin only a decade or two after it reaches its peak population, wealth and power."
    Warnings are everywhere. Why not prepare? Why sabotage our power, our future? Why set up an entire nation to fail? Diamond says: Unfortunately "one of the choices has depended on the courage to practice long-term thinking, and to make bold, courageous, anticipatory decisions at a time when problems have become perceptible but before they reach crisis proportions."
    Sound familiar? "This type of decision-making is the opposite of the short-term reactive decision-making that too often characterizes our elected politicians," thus setting up the "inevitable" collapse. Remember, Greenspan, Bernanke, Bush, Paulson all missed the 2007-8 meltdown: It will happen again, in a bigger crisis.
    3. Wall Street sacked Washington

    Bogle warned of a growing three-part threat -- a "happy conspiracy" -- in "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism:" "The business and ethical standards of corporate America, of investment America, and of mutual fund America have been gravely compromised."
    But since his book, "Wall Street America" went over to the dark side, got mega-greedy and took control of "Washington America." Their spoils of war included bailouts, bankruptcies, stimulus, nationalizations and $23.7 trillion new debt off-loaded to the Treasury, Fed and American people.
    Who's in power? Irrelevant. The "happy conspiracy" controls both parties, writes the laws to suit its needs, with absolute control of America's fiscal and monetary policies. Sorry Jack, but the "Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" really was lost.
    4. When greed was legalized

    Go see Michael Moore's documentary, "Capitalism: A Love Story." "Disaster Capitalism" author Naomi Klein recently interviewed Moore in The Nation magazine: "Capitalism is the legalization of this greed. Greed has been with human beings forever. We have a number of things in our species that you would call the dark side, and greed is one of them. If you don't put certain structures in place or restrictions on those parts of our being that come from that dark place, then it gets out of control."
    Greed's OK, within limits, like the 10 Commandments. Yes, the soul can thrive around greed, if there are structures and restrictions to keep it from going out of control. But Moore warns: "Capitalism does the opposite of that. It not only doesn't really put any structure or restrictions on it. It encourages it, it rewards" greed, creating bigger, more frequent bubble/bust cycles.
    It happens because capitalism is now in "the hands of people whose only concern is their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders or to their own pockets." Yes, greed was legalized in America, with Wall Street running Washington.
    5. Triggering the end of our 'life cycle'

    Like Diamond, Faber also sees the historical imperative: "Every successful society" grows "out of some kind of challenge." Today, the "life cycle" of capitalism is on the decline.
    He asks himself: "How are you so sure about this final collapse?" The answer: "Of all the questions I have about the future, this is the easiest one to answer. Once a society becomes successful it becomes arrogant, righteous, overconfident, corrupt, and decadent ... overspends ... costly wars ... wealth inequity and social tensions increase; and society enters a secular decline." Success makes us our own worst enemy.
    Quoting 18th century Scottish historian Alexander Fraser Tytler: "The average life span of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years" progressing from "bondage to spiritual faith ... to great courage ... to liberty ... to abundance ... to selfishness ... to complacency ... to apathy ... to dependence and ... back into bondage!"
    Where is America in the cycle? "It is most unlikely that Western societies, and especially the U.S., will be an exception to this typical 'society cycle.' ... The U.S. is somewhere between the phase where it moves 'from complacency to apathy' and 'from apathy to dependence.'"
    In short, America is a grumpy old man with hardening of the arteries. Our capitalism is near the tipping point, unprepared for a catastrophe, set up for collapse and rapid decline.
    15 more clues capitalism lost its soul ... is a disaster waiting to happen








    Much more evidence litters the battlefield:
    1. Wall Street wealth now calls the shots in Congress, the White House
    2. America's top 1% own more than 90% of America's wealth
    3. The average worker's income has declined in three decades while CEO compensation exploded over ten times
    4. The Fed is now the 'fourth branch of government' operating autonomously, secretly printing money at will
    5. Since Goldman and Morgan became bank holding companies, all banks are back gambling with taxpayer bailout money plus retail customer deposits
    6. Bill Gross warns of a "new normal" with slow growth, low earnings and stock prices
    7. While the White House's chief economist retorts with hype of a recovery unimpeded by the "new normal"
    8. Wall Street's high-frequency junkies make billions trading zombie stocks like AIG, FNMA, FMAC that have no fundamental value beyond a Treasury guarantee
    9. 401(k)s have lost 26.7% of their value in the past decade
    10. Oil and energy costs will skyrocket
    11. Foreign nations and sovereign funds have started dumping dollars, signaling the end of the dollar as the world's reserve currency
    12. In two years federal debt exploded from $11.2 to $23.7 trillion
    13. New financial reforms will do little to prevent the next meltdown
    14. The "forever war" between Western and Islamic fundamentalists will widen
    15. As will environmental threats and unfunded entitlements
    "America Capitalism" is a "Lost Soul" ... we've lost our moral compass ... the coming collapse is the end of an "inevitable" historical cycle stalking all great empires to their graves. Downsize your lifestyle expectations, trust no one, not even media.
    Faber is uncertain about timing, we are not. There is a high probability of a crisis and collapse by 2012. The "Great Depression 2" is dead ahead. Unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing you can do to hide from this unfolding reality or prevent the rush of the historical imperative.

    So what do you think? Do you think its inevetable, and if so, why?




    Last edited by Thorn777; May 03, 2010 at 09:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  2. #2
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    this guy actually gave credence to that crazy Russian professors claim America would split by 2011.

    In answer, no we had it worse in the great depression and America pulled through that, we can pull through this.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  3. #3
    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    In answer, no we had it worse in the great depression and America pulled through that, we can pull through this.
    A bit late but i like to point out that it was ...
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    the Second Warld War

    that saved US of A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post
    The Venetian Doge may not have micromanaged the economy and maybe he even encouraged growth of wealth and welfare, but so long as he (the government) has the unrestrained right to interfere, it is not capitalism. There was no codified protection of property from the government.
    You have spoken the truth.
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    Last edited by ShockBlast; May 03, 2010 at 03:34 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    In answer, no we had it worse in the great depression and America pulled through that, we can pull through this.
    Is there really no better way than to have the current system which causes a depression every 50-100 years? Is this the best way to live that we currently have available to us?

    Also to the poster above: He must be a King! Why? Because he hasn't got all over him!
    Last edited by Dodge; May 04, 2010 at 09:49 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    I think it's a lot of sensationalism in that article there and it loses credibility by citing a Michael Moore documentary.

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    Ältester der Motten's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    I think it's a lot of sensationalism in that article there and it loses credibility by citing a Michael Moore documentary.
    Word.

  7. #7

    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    WHAT IS THIS...
    i dont even...

    Oh look everyone, another conspiracy theory concerning the USA. What a surprise.

    This pales in comparison to the genius ranting of Obama being a Marxist, muslim, terrorist and Kenyan seeking the turn the USA into the USSA by socializing everything and then driving America into the ground to allow muslims, communists and terrorists everywhere to have their victory.

    Or the intricity of the New World Order theory with the Jewnited $nakes of AmeriKKKa seeking to make a One-World Government ruled by teh Jews who will bring this about through their rule of the world's media, governments, law, military and corporations.
    Why is it that certain people think they're above criticism and satire?

  8. #8
    Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Sensationalism here and there, yes. An interview in one of Michael Moore's movies was mentioned, yes.

    However the book it is citing does strike several undeniably worrisome points that are well known facts and common knowledge for everyone interested in the economy, and In my perception I see the recipe's for increasing crisis popping up everywhere.

    I really think we will meet a period of transition and I wonder how it will look like. I know one thing, that we rather like to stick to our comfortable ways and call everything a "conspiracy" or "doomsaying" before having to deal with new uncomfortable realities.

    Thats a point the article addresses well in my opinion.

    And no its not about "dissing the USA", this is a worldwide issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Sensationalism here and there, yes. An interview in one of Michael Moore's movies was mentioned, yes.
    Most of it is trying to declare that some huge cataclysm is about to hit us. Collapse of global society? I mean c'mon, this isn't the Roman Empire, when is the last time a civilization collapsed? It's been a long time. One might be able to say the Soviet Union, but that was a set back for Russia, yeah it lost control of other Soviet Republics, but Russia is still Russia. I think there is need to reform, sure, I can't stand these investment bankers and all the other scum bags on Wallstreet, but I don't think it will lead to a global meltdown or the doom of America.

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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    That website should be called the ignorant economist. Most people play the game of capitalism and those who play best get the reward. Capitalism is gambling and after sex that is the most popular pastime in the world.

    The US will not crash so soon. If it happens this will be within 100 years, likely they have another good fifty years. Remember the UK brought in welfare at the begining of the twentieth century and lost much of its power and influence in the 30 years after WWII.

    As for Capitalism it has been around since the Greeks in Europe and was prominent in China before communism. There have always been bastions of Capitalism Greece, Rome, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, Milan, Netherlands, UK, USA. From the 17th Century it was spread by the British who inherited a good system from the Dutch.



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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Truth mixed with fantasy.

    The fact that he singles out 'capitalism' speaks quite a bit. If he was singling out our current government and government trends and spending habits, that would be one thing, but once 'capitalism' is the problem than the motive is pretty clear.

    He also blames Wall street for the government problems, and can't seem to see how it flows the other way usually.
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    That website should be called the ignorant economist. Most people play the game of capitalism and those who play best get the reward. Capitalism is gambling and after sex that is the most popular pastime in the world.

    The US will not crash so soon. If it happens this will be within 100 years, likely they have another good fifty years. Remember the UK brought in welfare at the begining of the twentieth century and lost much of its power and influence in the 30 years after WWII.

    As for Capitalism it has been around since the Greeks in Europe and was prominent in China before communism. There have always been bastions of Capitalism Greece, Rome, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, Milan, Netherlands, UK, USA. From the 17th Century it was spread by the British who inherited a good system from the Dutch.
    You say ancient Greece, I raise you cavemen...

    Capitalism is a very broad term, and in the broadest sense has always been part of recorded human history. Its not about that...its about our ways of handling capitalism and politics these last 30 years.

    You blame "welfare" for something having a multitude reasons, I blame neo-liberalism and corrupt politics for the many troubling revelations that passed these last years and wont seem to end at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    You say ancient Greece, I raise you cavemen...

    Capitalism is a very broad term, and in the broadest sense has always been part of recorded human history. Its not about that...its about our ways of handling capitalism and politics these last 30 years.

    You blame "welfare" for something having a multitude reasons, I blame neo-liberalism and corrupt politics for the many troubling revelations that passed these last years and wont seem to end at all.
    The simplest view of finance is control and no control. The first is Communism state control, the second is unfettered greed to allow economical growth.

    Now there is a political ideal for both of these and that is to allow within Communism a channeled lifting of restrictions to create fostered growth allowing for social changes. To the right it is in slight restrictions to prevent damage from very bad questionable practices but still allow growth and employment.

    The risk of one oposite to the pure or fostered form is that to much will cause destability. The good news is that it can be fixed by removing the idiot from the controlls and putting in someone who understands the simple concepts of supply, demand, oportunity and can recognise bad practice against solid dependable practice.

    Wellfare was a requirement that is needed in society however if left unchecked it can become a parasite when it was a symbiot.



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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    That website should be called the ignorant economist. Most people play the game of capitalism and those who play best get the reward.
    Not lately.

    Lately it has been if you play with other people's money and lose billions you still become a multi-millionaire if you have right political connections (Wing Chau, Howie Hubler, etc) =/
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Not lately.

    Lately it has been if you play with other people's money and lose billions you still become a multi-millionaire if you have right political connections (Wing Chau, Howie Hubler, etc) =/
    Part of Capitalism is recognising the enviornment you are trading in so political connection count when you are a major player. So they are still playing well because they are playing for themselves and to limit losses as much as increase profits.



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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by pharaoh01275 View Post
    america will fall because their all idiots

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_U0G...eature=related
    they're oh sweet irony.


    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    As for Capitalism it has been around since the Greeks in Europe and was prominent in China before communism. There have always been bastions of Capitalism Greece, Rome, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, Milan, Netherlands, UK, USA. From the 17th Century it was spread by the British who inherited a good system from the Dutch.
    Well, not really. Capitalism is a system in which government interference/control of the market is limited by a constitution or set of legal codes. Whereas the Greeks and Romans had governments with unlimited authority over the economy and its players. Statism is the precursor to modern capitalism, as the dominant economic form of the 20th century.

    Also, I don't think the British "inherited" anything from the Dutch, maybe you mean to use the word "borrowed". Unless of course you're saying that the Dutch conquered Britain...

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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post
    Well, not really. Capitalism is a system in which government interference/control of the market is limited by a constitution or set of legal codes. Whereas the Greeks and Romans had governments with unlimited authority over the economy and its players. Statism is the precursor to modern capitalism, as the dominant economic form of the 20th century.

    Also, I don't think the British "inherited" anything from the Dutch, maybe you mean to use the word "borrowed". Unless of course you're saying that the Dutch conquered Britain...
    Britain inherited its banking system from the Dutch during the reign of William III, that is why we have the Bank of England.

    Capitalism is a series of investments to maximise profits. Would you not say that Crassus was not a Capitalist? He was a Roman and I am sure that there were Capitalists in Greece as it is mentioned of people like this mentioned in Plato's Republic. You dont need a stock market to have capitalism.



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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    Britain inherited its banking system from the Dutch during the reign of William III, that is why we have the Bank of England.
    Then borrowed is the word you're looking for. The Byzantines inherited x, y and z from the Romans.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    Capitalism is a series of investments to maximise profits. Would you not say that Crassus was not a Capitalist? He was a Roman and I am sure that there were Capitalists in Greece as it is mentioned of people like this mentioned in Plato's Republic. You dont need a stock market to have capitalism.
    I would not say that Crassus was a capitalist because capitalism as a concept did not exist in his time. Capitalism does not = series of investments. Thats like saying a car = wheels.

    Capitalism is by defintion, a freeing of the market from government interference or control. Thus in a capitalist system, the government cannot simply take away your wealth without a constitutionally valid reason.

    The government cannot say "all gas stations are now government operated", it just wouldn't happen. However in ancient Roman and Greek times, this sort of thing is the case. Those people had no concept of capitalism!

    Even amongst scholars who disagree about what exactly capitalism is, all agree that capitalism did not exist prior to the 17th century. Especially not in the time of Crassus. You really need to read up on this stuff before you start making statements about it.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post
    Then borrowed is the word you're looking for. The Byzantines inherited x, y and z from the Romans.

    I would not say that Crassus was a capitalist because capitalism as a concept did not exist in his time. Capitalism does not = series of investments. Thats like saying a car = wheels.

    Capitalism is by defintion, a freeing of the market from government interference or control. Thus in a capitalist system, the government cannot simply take away your wealth without a constitutionally valid reason.

    The government cannot say "all gas stations are now government operated", it just wouldn't happen. However in ancient Roman and Greek times, this sort of thing is the case. Those people had no concept of capitalism!

    Even amongst scholars who disagree about what exactly capitalism is, all agree that capitalism did not exist prior to the 17th century. Especially not in the time of Crassus. You really need to read up on this stuff before you start making statements about it.
    Crassus got his power because he invested in property after the fires in Rome, he owned most of it that is how he got rich and no one took it from him. Read up on Crassus. The British did not borrow the concept as borrowing implies that they had the intent of returning it. It is an idea that they would not have used if they did not have a Dutch King and heavy trade because of this with the Dutch, so inherited still works for me.

    As for Capitalism the idea is trading with little regulation on trade. The whole world had very authoritarian countries however trade was encouraged in cities like Venice throughout its history. There were people who made their fortunes because of Free trade in the Nation, the Republic happened to work to gain trade rights for their merchants but what Capitalist country does not. In China during many dynasties there were still millionairs who worked on Capitalist principles despite some government interferance there was enough to still be right wing in terms of trade.

    If you cant count that as a Capitalist state then you would not count Britain as being Capitalist after WWII despite there being business that operated in that way. Even the ruling parties could not fully prevent Capitalist attempts and ideas throughout history. Remember that being a Capitalist is as much a choice for how to live your life as an enforced way of life.



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    Default Re: '20 reasons America has lost its soul and collapse is inevitable'

    Read the about section. The guy is a joke. He claims he has these degrees and whishes to remain anonymous. To me that just seems that he is pretending to be an economist in employment. I suspect that even if he has the degrees he was not able to hold onto his job, so he is not a good economist.



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