What's wrong with the Ottoman's!?

[morteduzionism]

In three different campaigns (started from scratch not reloads) Venice has stomped a mud hole in their butts...

In the recent campaign I thought the Ottoman's would finally show their stuff...WRONG! We talkin' bout the Ottoman's here.

Venice managed to capture Egypt (or the region west of Egypt)...I don't know but it was small. All they [Venice] had was that one region and their home region...

A few turns later I check back on the situation...

Venice has ran the Ottoman's out of the whole area! Venice had pushed the Ottoman's into Europe. Venice controlled Turkey.

WTF!?

[eXistenZ]

Yeah i see the ottomans getting their ass kicked too sometimes. When playing france, russia had pushed them into egypt (around 1750), and another campaign venice had taken over grecce and bulgaria area there

[Jazx]

Yeah i see the ottomans getting their ass kicked too sometimes. When playing france, russia had pushed them into egypt (around 1750), and another campaign venice had taken over grecce and bulgaria area there

Ottomans got kicked ass *only* at 1877 russian-turkish war and WW1 others no defeat. Small countries would never able to push ottomans until 1877 but after that you are right

[The Fool on The Hill]

In my Campaign the Ottomans are allied with Venice and Russia? Maybe it is because I am allied with Britain and I am playing as France.

[dutch81]

Well it is very much an Empire in decline ... if you play them yourself you will see that you are pressed from all sides right away and it will take some skill to keep the empire whole ... with time however they become formidable again. In most of my campaigns they hang on very well until the Indian blob comes then they have no chance ... but then what AI faction does?

In my latest campaign as Spain ... Prussia was taking names in Austria (2 provinces left) and Poland (2 provinces left) then a few turn later and they have recaptured all ground lost to Prussia and it is Prussia on the defense it was very cool to see ... I don't see many comebacks!

I think that you should do everything you can to keep the Ottoman strong give them trade, tech, and money ... I think they have the best chance of keeping the Maratha in check ... I have been doing this and once I destroy their protectorate I want an alliance with them so I can send a stack into Persia just to help hold the Maratha to India proper.

[priam11]

I always wondered if part of the problem was the AI inability to transfer troops back and forth to Europe or Asia minor. Too often I see stacks of troops on one side doing nothing,where they are really needed somehwere else and he AI cannot adjust.

I don't believe CA ever fixed that issue.

[Darkpriest667]

Well it is very much an Empire in decline ... if you play them yourself you will see that you are pressed from all sides right away and it will take some skill to keep the empire whole ... with time however they become formidable again. In most of my campaigns they hang on very well until the Indian blob comes then they have no chance ... but then what AI faction does?

In my latest campaign as Spain ... Prussia was taking names in Austria (2 provinces left) and Poland (2 provinces left) then a few turn later and they have recaptured all ground lost to Prussia and it is Prussia on the defense it was very cool to see ... I don't see many comebacks!

I think that you should do everything you can to keep the Ottoman strong give them trade, tech, and money ... I think they have the best chance of keeping the Maratha in check ... I have been doing this and once I destroy their protectorate I want an alliance with them so I can send a stack into Persia just to help hold the Maratha to India proper.

The official period of ottoman decline isnt recognized as happening until 1828... They won a war against the russians in 1711... I dont know where you are saying The ottoman empire really wasnt in decline until at least the Janissary Revolt of 1807.. or the Serbian Revolt of 1804-1815


Its not an empire in decline... ETW just nerfed the hell out of them..

[british_general]

Well it is very much an Empire in decline ... if you play them yourself you will see that you are pressed from all sides right away and it will take some skill to keep the empire whole ...

OMG! I thought of that too when I saw the thread name. They were generally at their strongest a long time ago and it's amazing that they still survived so well. Anyway, I saw the Ottoman troops and thought of them as ordinary, but then I realised that they only come in late game , which is why they are considered hard to play.

[kikosemmek]

It's 1939, and I am playing as the Ottoman Empire. Currently, the Empire spans across all of the Middle East, and has recently annexed the Ukraine and Muscovy in a glorious push against the Russians. I have conquered some provinces in India (I attacked the Mughals before the Marathas finished them off), to which I am connected by land, in addition to Calcutta, the region directly south of it, and Sri Lanka.

I am trading with everyone I am not at war with, and I am at war with Russia and Poland-Lithuania. I can finance four full-stack armies because I've largely enjoyed a period of peace after my Eastern push into India, in which I built lots and lots of production buildings, lowring taxes and promoting growth. I just got those nifty Nizam-I Cedit soldiers. I am surprised that their stats are up there with British and Prussian line infantry. I don't have proper guards, but my Sipahi cavalry more than makes up for the lack of punch there. Also, those Organ guns are serious business

What decline?

The way I got there, basically, was do my best at removing most of the intial cabinet and installing good replacements, forging peaceful, economical relations with most of the West, and with the Maratha Confederacy, and being aggressive toward the East. The Venetians didn't try anything stupid because I kept Athens garrisoned for a long time, while Georgia didn't attack me before I moved against it. I did all I could to avoid war with Austria. It wasn't too hard. If you sell them some military access, they don't move on you. Their attentions were easily turned to Poland and Prussia, anyways. I lowered taxes and let growth take place for a long time, and it all pays off in the end. The Empire is rich as a result, and its armies are beastly. I'm thinking that once I'm done with the Russians and Poles, and I can try my hand at some American colonization.

Special tip: abandon the Barbary States. They aren't worth the diplomatic trouble. Instead, construct your own navy (7-8 Brigs + 1-2 Fifth rates should cut it). Use that to intercept Venetian amphibious attempts after taking Morea. The Venetians only have a trading port, which means most of what they'll throw at you will be a combination of Indiamen, Sloops, and Brigs in groups of 4-6. You should be able to tackle that easily with your inexpensive navy. Meanwhile, use your European army to rampage across Russia, conquering provinces like Kazan, and Astrakhan, giving them to the Crimean Khanate. I also gave them Ukraine. This slows Russia down immensely, allowing me to turn my full attention to my great big money-grab push through Afghanistan into India. By the time I was done, Russia conveniently destroyed the Khanate, and I simply attacked and reconquered the areas. I was pretty rich by then.

[dutch81]

The Maratha at least seem perfectly capable ... also I have seen the Ottoman move into Persia. Now moving there by sea is a bigger problem ... I would like to see the British and French have a colony in India like Portugal ... I think these factions would be more capable of holding and perhaps expanding from their holdings ... I know some mods have taken this approach with good results.

[TheEschaton]

Just thought I'd mention that in a recent game where I played as the Ottomans, I totally saw the British start a colony in India, just above Portugal's. It was very cool to see, and then (because I was also in India by then) I took it from them immediately lol.

[AnarchyNuuk]

I don't know about you, but most humans these days already have a mudhole in their butt's, not stomping from crazy Italians needed.

[Zomg]

Ottomans have a lot of enemys (even persia, the only other moderately powerful muslim country) and they are stretched to their limits to make some semblance of holding their territory. If they dont have a large fleet they can say goodbye to almost all trade as a lot has to go through the med and past all their enemies blockades. Their troops also dont get the fire by rank until much later when they can get some westernization which is a huge disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure they are the toughest country to win with, this has been my experience anyway.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yeah the AI stomps the Ottomans because most of their troops suck, aside from super-expensive units like the janissaries and certain swordsmen. And plus theyre in decline historically. But Ive played as them before and they actually have the potential to be quite good. And their artillery bonus comes in handy, too.

[dutch81]

"During this period much territory in the Balkans was ceded to Austria. Certain areas of the Empire, such as Egypt and Algeria, became independent in all but name, and later came under the influence of Britain and France. In the 18th century, centralized authority gave way to varying degrees of provincial autonomy enjoyed by local governors and leaders. A series of wars were fought between the Russian and Ottoman empires from the 18th to the 19th century. In mid-19th century, the Ottoman Empire was called the "sick man" by Europeans."

-WIKI


OK if you don't want to call it decline ... I'll go for the term stagnation, which is what the all knowing WIKI calls it ... whatever you want to call it the greatest days of the empire were behind it! I don't agree that ETW nerfed them they are capable if you lead them, I never lost a province with them and am fighting in India and Russia and North Africa ... I think they are one of the coolest factions. Also the player can get the reforms much earlier then historically accurate (that is not nerfing) ... although in my own game I vowed not to seek them unless I suffered serious reverses ... so I doubt military reforms will be forth coming!

[InF3sTeD]

In one of my GC's The Ottoman's sent a full stack to invade Ireland. Really the only time I have seen them do anything.

[Darkpriest667]

"During this period much territory in the Balkans was ceded to Austria. Certain areas of the Empire, such as Egypt and Algeria, became independent in all but name, and later came under the influence of Britain and France. In the 18th century, centralized authority gave way to varying degrees of provincial autonomy enjoyed by local governors and leaders. A series of wars were fought between the Russian and Ottoman empires from the 18th to the 19th century. In mid-19th century, the Ottoman Empire was called the "sick man" by Europeans."

-WIKI


OK if you don't want to call it decline ... I'll go for the term stagnation, which is what the all knowing WIKI calls it ... whatever you want to call it the greatest days of the empire were behind it! I don't agree that ETW nerfed them they are capable if you lead them, I never lost a province with them and am fighting in India and Russia and North Africa ... I think they are one of the coolest factions. Also the player can get the reforms much earlier then historically accurate (that is not nerfing) ... although in my own game I vowed not to seek them unless I suffered serious reverses ... so I doubt military reforms will be forth coming!

Dont ever quote wiki as some sort of academic reference.. because its not a good one.



Now.. Let me tell you what has happened in EVERY ottoman game ive played (on vanilla havent tried them with darth mod)

Turn 1.... stagnation... just do regular things that every empire needs done on turn 1

Turn 2... Georgia and Dagestan declare war... I break protectorship with barbary immediately no one will sign trade agreements with me not even if i offer them my entire reserve of gold...

Turn 3 austria declares war and sends usually a full stack to istanbul venice declares war and takes greece .

By turn 10 im fighting off full stacks from dagestan georgia venice and austria.. and usually by this time austria has 3 or 4 and if it wasnt for the incompetent BAI i would be dead already.

turn 20 Ive lost Iraq the balkans and of course greece... persia sometimes will and sometimes wont have declared war by now... depending on how many stacks austria has chosen to send I may have lost istanbul by now...



the most anxiety I had about this game was finally the ability to play the great ottoman empire... Only to find out the computer pretty much attempts to rape them from all sides.

[empr guy]

the most anxiety I had about this game was finally the ability to play the great ottoman empire... Only to find out the computer pretty much attempts to rape them from all sides.

im not sure you understand, having a border with a nation enrages the AI to such an extent they are FORCED to declare war on you

i've only palyed one campaign as them that i never finished, but since Persia is nuetral and Austria is getting rapped i was doing fairly well. In my britian campaign i was shocked to see the Ottomans absorb the smaller nations, take over persia, and then move into India. we both declared war on the marathas, they came from the north and me from the south it was great


but thats the only time they've ever done anything :/.

[dutch81]

It is a general statement but it is correct in this case ... but yeah for academic research I know but those days are long gone thank you very much!

My experience with the Ottoman is very different I maintained peace & trade with Austria never had more then 2 units in my forts on the border. Poland and I maintained peace and trade with until 60 turns into the game ... by this time they had taken most of Austria and declared war on my protectorate and took it so it was a good time to enter the fray. I had trade with France GB Spain ... pretty much as much as I wanted and had ports to do it with. Key here is to take all those silly fishing ports out on turn one ... make them trade ports ... sweeten the deal give them 250-500 per turn for 5 turns and they will trade with you and you still make money alot in the long run. I did have an early war with Russia but once I took Kiev it left me in a good position against them ... I ended up taking the rest of the provinces around the black sea to secure my protectorate and then got peace with them and trade ... we have been at peace since them in fact I have helped finance their defense against the invading Swedes. I took the advice of others and attacked Georgia and then Dagestan in turn when I was ready before that though I paid them to trade and maintaned the peace with them. With these thorns out of my north side I turned to my other trade partner Persia ... who were very weak for so late in the game ... they had a powerfull navy though but but that was little help to them when their lands were taken. I am now at war with the Maratha after they attacked my ally Afghanistan ... this will be a very tough war as they already have huge experienced armies. I am also currently at war with Poland still I will keep fighting them until I can take Vienna after which time I will offer them peace as well. Spain is my next enemy they have taken all of North Africa up to Tripoli ... which forced me to attack my protectorate to keep a bit of a buffer before Egypt ... I hate to do this but I cannot stomach them converting the millions of muslims under their rule ... and all I need is a war that threatens all this trade money I am making. As far as trade hubs go ... I own all the Ivory in the world ... I have some hubs in Brazil and Indonesia ... I have a powerfull navy in the Med but so far am unable to project much power beyond that ... so I will try to hold off until I am able to do this.

[billydilly]

I'm in the middle of an Ottoman campaign and I agree with some of the previous posts.

First of all I allied myself with the Persians and the Georgians, I then recruited as many troops as possible and moved them to the Austrian, Polish and Russian border. I kept adding to the forces. I basically stripped all my eastern regions for troops.

Of course the Austrians attacked in the north, as did the Venetians in the south. I lost Athens to Venice and Bosnia to the Austrians. I didn't attempt to recapture them right away. I kept building my armies in Serbia and Sofia. I then captured both Bosnia and Athens. Morea rebelled and became independent - I left them alone because I was busy with the Austrians kept attacking in the north.

I think the key to survival is to accept the loss of some border regions. Be patient, find allies, develop the empire, strengthen the army and THEN reconquer you lost regions. AND don't be afraid to exchange tech with your friends!