Best intelligence service of WW II

[diegis]

It is usualy less discused the impact of this secret services before, during and after WW II, and how they probably manage to switch the balance of victory in some instances influencing the course of war, and even history.

I think the best was NKVD and GRU of SU, followed by Abwher and Gestapo of Germany, then UK and US, maybe even Japan.

NKVD/GRU had info from super spy Richard Sorge that Japan will not invade in far east, so bring new fresh troops from Siberia to stop the germans in front of Moscow, the first huge blow who shattered the Wermacht in east, and show them that they are not invincible. With out that, and if Moscow had fallen, who knows what the turn of the war in east will was. They had as well the Red Orchestra agents in Germany, Lucy network, Cambridge net spy in UK, and receive the secret of atomic bomb from US, managing to come almost on par with all west with implications up to this days.

Abwher/Gestapo- very good in east in Russia, under Gehlen command, unfortunately not trusted from the first, they manage to put down almost all spy networks from allies on the continent (except some soviet ones), and received the D-day plans in Ankara, stolen from british embassy, but this again wasnt used or trusted by german high command, who knows how the landing on Normandy will come if they did that. It was supposed that admiral Canaris, the commander of Abwehr, was the one who send to british the so called "Stockolm report", with infos about german new weapons, and that he was against Hitler all this time but this are just suppositions.

SIS of UK, manage to destroy all the Abwher networks in UK, and obtain the Enigma coding machine, so able at some point to fight very well against german U-boots, but generaly wasnt something near at the level of previous two services, faired poor on counter-intelligence against russians, not just before and during WWII, but after as well.

USA- mostly using technic sources, they manage to decode the japanese transmissions, very good for battles in Pacific (there is even a conspiracy theory that americans or Roosvelt know because of that about the attack at Pearl Harbour, but let it to be done, so have a reason to enter the war). And, as one very important moment, they find like that the inspection plan of japanese commander, admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the most important and capable japanese comander, and put down his aircraft killing him, and giving a huge blow to japanese navy. Not very good in counter-intelligence as well, during WW II especialy, but after too, especialy against the same russians

Japan- had agents on Hawai, who send all the necessary info about the island and harbour, so japanese aviation and navy can strike precisely and well what they want.

Other secret services who might be considered wasnt on top at that moment, or not even existed, and can be discussed separate (Mossad or french ones)

[antaeus]

you brush aside the capturing of the enigma machine as if it's nothing...

yet the germans didn't know they had it, the russians didn't know they had it (and wouldn't until the 1970s), and information gathered from it was spoon fed to stalin who was astounded throughout the war at how accurate the western allies were with their estimates of german movements and actions. they sometimes knew what the germans were doing before orders even reached the german officers at the front. enigma was one of the most important victories for the western allies... as an intelligence coup it was unparalleled in ww2. the only failures from the enigma decryption program were those plans which were so secret that they were not communicated at all over radio, and those plans which happened late in the war when the german communication network began to fail.

intelligence isn't just spies in the field. this is why the soviets and germans were never going to superseded the western allies... because they were both light years behind in technology and had to rely on field agents.

[diegis]

you brush aside the capturing of the enigma machine as if it's nothing...

yet the germans didn't know they had it, the russians didn't know they had it (and wouldn't until the 1970s), and information gathered from it was spoon fed to stalin who was astounded throughout the war at how accurate the western allies were with their estimates of german movements and actions. they sometimes knew what the germans were doing before orders even reached the german officers at the front. enigma was one of the most important victories for the western allies... as an intelligence coup it was unparalleled in ww2. the only failures from the enigma decryption program were those plans which were so secret that they were not communicated at all over radio, and those plans which happened late in the war when the german communication network began to fail.

intelligence isn't just spies in the field. this is why the soviets and germans were never going to superseded the western allies... because they were both light years behind in technology and had to rely on field agents.

Well, half of the merrit for Enigma, at least, is for poles. And on wiki is said that russians knew about enigma, thru John Cainrcross from Cambridge spy ring who worked for them. Operation Mincemeat was a succes, but it can be compared with Richard Sorge for ex., or even with the infos received by russians from Lucy and Red Orchestra, and who help them to win at Kursk, putting an end to german initiative on eastern front.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Not usually one to blow the national trumpet but it was Britain, hands down. Gave us enigma, Operation Mincemeat, James Bond and never committed a mass murder.

[cegorach]

Not usually one to blow the national trumpet but it was Britain, hands down. Gave us enigma, Operation Mincemeat, James Bond and never committed a mass murder.

Considering that large part of its intelligence in Europe was constructed and directed by the Poles it is not exactly so true.

http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-C.../dp/085303656X

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...939.E2.80.9345

Some have good PR and some are just doing real work and stay in the shadows where all self respecting spies should remain.

[HMS Empire Broadsword]

Not usually one to blow the national trumpet but it was Britain, hands down. Gave us enigma, Operation Mincemeat, James Bond and never committed a mass murder.

Also led to the foundation of ULTRA, which was about as useful to the Allies as one million men, 30 battleships, 30 aircraft carriers, and 10,000 tanks combined.

Also, the British were pioneers and easily dominated the feild in deceptive techniques. Ian Rankin wrote a very interesting book about it called Churchill's Wizards: The British Genius for Deception 1914-1945. It's all about dummy buildings, planes, lorries, tanks, and deceptive plans to fool the enemy. Definately worth reading.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

I agree, Britain obviously gets the first rank on this. As mentioned above the breaking of the Enigma, something that the Germans were unaware of. It was actually thought to be impossible, changing to the more advanced enigma machine (codenamed Shark) during 42 only happened because admiral Doenitz was worried of an intelligence compromise and kept pressuring for a change in codes. But even those codes were eventually broken by the people working at Bletchley park.


Operation Fortitude, a combination of dummy planes, rubber tanks, double agents... successfull enough to have the Germans expect an invasion near Calai even when the forces that landed on D Day had been fighting on the continent for months. The many underground networks kept by SOE in occupied countries all over the world, even in south east asia. Their success in Norway and the heavy water stores (both factory sabotage and sinking the ship carrying the reserves to Germany)... the list can keep going.

Of course there were a few blunders on their side as well. Like the inability of SOE headquarters to realise that their network in Holland had been compromised (radio operator had not transmitted the needed codes to give a hint that they had been captured but headquarters believed it to be a mistake), until certain members of the resistance escaped and informed the British embasy in Switzerland.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Piggybacking on our glory, eh?

[cegorach]

Piggybacking on our glory, eh?

The opposite of what was the norm for six decades or in other words justice.

But if you need the respect for something other people actually did to feel better about yourself OK.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The opposite of what was the norm for six decades or in other words justice.

But if you need the respect for something other people actually did to feel better about yourself OK.

Mate you're riding so hard on my coat-tails you're close to choking me.

[Niles Crane]

The opposite of what was the norm for six decades or in other words justice.

But if you need the respect for something other people actually did to feel better about yourself OK.

I've never seen a post that makes someone look like a huge dick before now. Well done.

[Il-Principe]

Surprisingly nobody has mentioned the stealing of the A-Bomb. I don't think, any intelligence have could have toppled this. The Russians greatly profited of intelligence influx from the Manhattan Project. Plus the Russians infiltrated the Japanese military intelligence, the MI5 and large parts of the British upper society, were able to steal the Spanish gold reserves, etc..

[diegis]

Surprisingly nobody has mentioned the stealing of the A-Bomb. I don't think, any intelligence have could have toppled this. The Russians greatly profited of intelligence influx from the Manhattan Project. Plus the Russians infiltrated the Japanese military intelligence, the MI5 and large parts of the British upper society, were able to steal the Spanish gold reserves, etc..

I mentioned the A-bomb in first post

[Manuel I Komnenos]

In fact the British intelligence had informed the Soviets about the exact time of the beginning of the operation Barbarossa, but the Russians didn't seem to believe it, until the German panzers had crossed the borders..

@Ferrets54, I remember reading about Operation Mincemeat before a few years.. It was very interesting in how the British succeeded in the deception of the Germans..

[Sirota]

In fact the British intelligence had informed the Soviets about the exact time of the beginning of the operation Barbarossa, but the Russians didn't seem to believe it, until the German panzers had crossed the borders.

Umm, the Russian spy networks aren't to be judged by Stalin's stupidity of simply ignoring them - the man didn't trust R. Sorge either. But all in all I think the British intelligence during the war was one of the best, mainly for its decoding of the enigma.

[eisenkopf]

You cannot simply lump the Abwehr and the Gestapo together - they are completely different organizations, with a different history, and different tasks.

I would not classify the Gestapo as an intelligence service, although I may be alone in this categorization. But then, I would not classify the Stasi as one, either. I would classify them as criminal organizations of totalitarian regimes, with the sole task of the terrorization and elimination of domestic opposition.

The Abwehr has been a "classic" military intelligence service. Its performance in WWII is very difficult to assess, because several members of it, including Hans Oster and the chief itself, Wilhelm Canaris, were members of the military resistance against the Nazis. Thats not a "supposition", but a historical fact. It is believed though not proven that they may have actively sabotaged German intelligence in England and the USA (though not in German occupied territories).

[diegis]

You cannot simply lump the Abwehr and the Gestapo together - they are completely different organizations, with a different history, and different tasks.

I would not classify the Gestapo as an intelligence service, although I may be alone in this categorization. But then, I would not classify the Stasi as one, either. I would classify them as criminal organizations of totalitarian regimes, with the sole task of the terrorization and elimination of domestic opposition.

The Abwehr has been a "classic" military intelligence service. Its performance in WWII is very difficult to assess, because several members of it, including Hans Oster and the chief itself, Wilhelm Canaris, were members of the military resistance against the Nazis. Thats not a "supposition", but a historical fact. It is believed though not proven that they may have actively sabotaged German intelligence in England and the USA (though not in German occupied territories).

Yes, i agree that both Gestapo and NKVD was criminal organizations, i just mentioned them for their role in counter-spionage (or even spionage) during that period. About Canaris, i said there is suppostion that he was behind that documents send to brits with the new german weapons. He was against Hitler and nazis, is clear

[Farnan]

Special Operations Executive, Secret Intelligence Service, Office of Strategic Services, Marquis and Polish Cypher Bureau probably rank as the best. German intelligence didn't even know their codes were broken, the Japanese could never find out US code and I don't know much about Soviet Intelligence.

[cegorach]

Cooperation between (e.g. Czechoslovakia and Poland) various secret agencies before the war (and during it) is a fascinating subject - this means that very few agencies can claim responsibility for large operation, especially in Allied camp.

It was different in the Axis, not to mention the Soviets so I guess the Soviets could be seen as the ones who developed the best secret services - because of their totalitarian system and huge structures funded well by the state they were very difficult to infiltrate which is 50% of success.
Their decryption capabilities were avarage in my opinion, but managed to deploy or plant or create a number of spy networks abroad which was easier in more open societies.
With huge losses - initially it was easy to spot a Soviet spy - poorly prepared, with bad language skills and often completely clueless about customs in other countries, but after those dozens were eliminated gradually they've sent better prepared agents.
Massive funding would be the key combined with certain fashion in some circles where Soviet Union was seen as progressive state, postitive example and in general 'the good guys'.

German intelligence suffered from infighting, sabotage in their own ranks and chaos.

British used experience and work of other agencies, often from occupied countries and governments in exile and underestimated Soviet infiltration even in top positiions in the government.

American was initially very inexperienced. Their intelligence networks in some regions didn't even exist before the war.

About Japanese, Italian or French I can say much less.

Polish could be considered one of the best, even with global aspirations (networks in Southern America or North Africa!), but overall it was not sizable enough. For Europe - perhaps in top three, maybe higher, but for the world not really.

Other countries created good services, but I doubt any of them could be even considered even if Czechoslovak were supposedly pretty good against Germany.

Maybe someone could add something about Romanian or Hungarian, Belgian or Dutch, Swedish or Spanish, or Swiss?

Special Operations Executive, Secret Intelligence Service, Office of Strategic Services, Marquis and Polish Cypher Bureau probably rank as the best. German intelligence didn't even know their codes were broken, the Japanese could never find out US code and I don't know much about Soviet Intelligence.

Actually their decryption capabilities were not so bad. Before 1939 Japan and Poland cooperated extensively in this field. Jan Kowalewski the founder of the Cypher Bureau several times travelled to Japan to help them in establishing suitable structures which apparently worked pretty well against the Soviets, but failed against the Americans for some reason (that is a good question to experts).

Maybe simply they were based on something different - after all several other countries were also able to decypher Soviet codes e.g. Estonia which was helped by Poland and which helped Finland and Sweden in this area.
Sometimes it seems odd what targets were found by some secret agencies e.g.:'Ties formed with the Polish authorities brought about courses in which Irgun commanders were trained by Polish officers in advanced military issues such as guerrilla warfare, tactics and laying land mines.' That was organised against Britain in 1937-39(!).







I am currently reading a mammoth (927 pages + index) work about post-I WW cryptology, mainly about Polish during the war against the Reds in 1918-20 - extremely interesting.
Very few people realise that Russians were one of top countries in radio communication while Austro-Hungary in decryptology. Had had some consequences in later decades.

[Farnan]

Actually their decryption capabilities were not so bad. Before 1939 Japan and Poland cooperated extensively in this field. Jan Kowalewski the founder of the Cypher Bureau several times travelled to Japan to help them in establishing suitable structures which apparently worked pretty well against the Soviets, but failed against the Americans for some reason (that is a good question to experts).

Maybe simply they were based on something different - after all several other countries were also able to decypher Soviet codes e.g. Estonia which was helped by Poland and which helped Finland and Sweden in this area.

Cooperation between (e.g. Czechoslovakia and Poland) various secret agencies before the war (and during it) is a fascinating subject - I am currently reading a mammoth (927 pages + index) work about post-I WW cryptology, mainly about Polish during the war against the Reds in 1918-20 - extremely interesting.
Very few people realise that Russians were one of top countries in radio communication while Austro-Hungary in decryptology. Had had some consequences in later decades.

This is why they failed against the Americans:

http://www.nmai.si.edu/education/codetalkers/