Forestry in premodern Japan

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I recently acquired the book "The Green Archeapeligo" by Conrad Totman. It discusses forestry in premodern Japan. Perhaps there will be some relevant information for things such as resources and resource enhancements which can be used for the mod. I will use this thread to post any relevant information that I glean from the book.

Some examples for economics;

Slash and burn agriculture (simple and effective but mines nutirents from the soil)
Green Manure-the use of mountain forbs (green non-vascular plants) to amend agricultural soils
Clearing of pine forests (allows more productive broadleaf species to grow)
Charcoal manufacturing (low quality usef ro heating/cooking, high quality used for weapon production)

these are a few just to start. I can go into detail as I read more.

[AngusH]

Great stuff, I'm adding this book to my ever-growing "To Buy" list... If only my income matched my reading list demands!!

[Wild Bill Kelso]

炭Charcoal:
Used for cooking and producing metals (weapons, tools and monuments)
Produced in a charcoal Kiln

Grades:
輪炭(watan)- used for heating and cooking made generally of deciduous leaves (nara (楢） and kunugi　oak species)
鉱炭(Koutan)- Used for smithing generally from Kuri　（栗） (chestnut)

Measured in units of Koku (1 koku = about 10 cubic feet)
Todaiji took over 16,650 koku to produce
Koutan is essential for the production of weapons/armour
Wood needed for salt producers/potters as well
Kinai reigion demanded the most charcoal during this time period
Charcoal production boomed around major cities

Kinai area used timber from Tanba, Oumi, Iga, Yoshino, Kii, Ise Mimasaka, Inaba Aki Hida Mino Saba Settsu, Suruga, Iga Bitchuu, In Shikoku (Tosa and Awa) also many most of western Honshuu

Mountain villagers produced watan and shipped it downstream by raft to be marketed at the city

Possible implications for the mod:

Have charcoal and timber as a trade good ( it is afterall a very forested country), especially from the areas that produce the wood as listed above and the major cities

Since koutan is necessary for weapon production, perhaps a building could be a kiln. This woucl be a prerequasite for any weapon/unit producing buildings can. Maybe by producing a kiln the new trade good charcoal can become available for a province (if this is moddable)

Any others?


Agricultural Notes:

Japanese soils are relatively poor so green fertilizer (Natural grasses, scrub growth, forest litter(leaves bark twigs)) were gathered from the mountain side to add nutrients. worked into the soil green or burned and stirred in as ash. This came from forests and wastelands (genya)

In times of need, villagers sometimes practiced slash and burn agriculture to supplement their harvest. This practice was very popular in the medieval time. Many displaced people as a result of warefare resorted to this style of agriculture

In mountainous regions terraces were used to bring steeper l;ands into production



Possible implications for the mod:
Have the first agricultural upgrade in the following order:
1 slash and burn
2 green fertilizer(maybe only allow after a kiln is established because contruction requires tools, plows etc)
3 irrigation (communal cooperation required which impies a larger population and organised village)
4 opening of uplands (terracing)

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Do you think you guys can use any of this? I really feel you should have some kind of economic aspect of the game tied to forestry since it was basically a wood based society.

[AngusH]

I think these ideas can definately be used as city upgrades for sure.

[Kagemusha]

I think we could use timber as tradeable resources like in RTW.Are the provinces you mentioned the key areas of timber?Or are there other areas in maybe Kanto region or Kuyshy aswell?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well the provinces I mentioned were probably used because they were closer to the areas that needed the timber (the Kinai basin). I am sure that other areas would have timber, but I woul dhave a hard time believeing that those far off areas shipped it to the large cities on Honshu. I thought that timber would be a good resource for areas lacking sufficient agriculture for income. No way to include charcoal? It was a the source of heating fuel for the cities and was traded in huge quantities.

[Kagemusha]

I think we can mod the tradeable resources so coal should be in also.Its a good idea becouse we really dont have too many resources yet.What i meant about the Kanto was that since it was the second most highly populated area after the Kinai and it was mostly plains maybe they got their lumber from northern provinces like Mutsu and Dewa?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

The book doesn't mention much about wood coming from the tohoku area. Though I am sure it would be fine to say that the provinces nieghbouring Edo in the Kanto area would have supplied timber and charcoal. Where are you going to have coal? I know there were some but not many privinces with substantial coal reserves.

[antisocialmunky]

It would be really nice if units could only be built in provences that are receiving the needed resources(resident or through trade). That's be really interesting.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

It would be really nice if units could only be built in provences that are receiving the needed resources(resident or through trade). That's be really interesting.

That would be neat to limit the higher level units to major centers while lower level units like ashigaru could be recruited from lesser provinces. That would also make the loss of a major province a huge blow.

[italiano]

semi OT, but I thought is might as well be asked here- are you guys modding the terrain/vegetation on the battle map (or at least use normal sized trees lol)??

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well I have completed a basic economic model for the game. I came out it by making a spreadsheet with each province and also with the trade resources. I did some research to find which provinces should have what, as well as made some educated guesses. After I completed the list I then gave every resource a general value (i.e. the max was gold=10 the min was fish=2). Then all the resources were added up for every province, and every provine was added up for each faction. What resulted was a very interesting relationship between the factions.

on the left is economic power, the right is expansion potential(if they took over all adjacent rebel provinces) only one bar means the faction has no adjacent rebel provinces..i.e. yhey need to go to war to expand!

[Obi Wan Asterix]

This is brilliant WBK!

Kage could you please email me the excel file and the hi resolution map?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Alright.. I have taken some real kokudaka data (thanks for the source Deathdoom!)and applied it to the game.

Here is what I came up with:





As you can see, many of the one province factions will still be able to compete economically with some of the larger domains. I still need to factor in other income sources (Mines, trade etc).

[Ecthelion]

I am surprised by Uesugi's dominance in rice production here. I was under the impression that the best farmlands were in the Kansai regions. Kantou was more mountainous, not as well formed for argiculture. I am in no way doubting you data, I am just curious about why you might think that Uesugi would have such a monster rice production.

[Xiaodun]

The numbers I found were from the actual statistics of the Taiko Kenchi. The Taiko Kenchi is the only reliable measurement of the actual fertileness of the provinces in Japan during this era. The only places where there would be large increases in the income of the nations would be in the Owari provinces, and other places that were affected by Nobunaga's reforms The reason why the Uesugi have such a large income is because it controls not only the Echigo and Echichu provinces, but also for some reason the large and fertile Musashi province. Why the Uesugi control Musashi, I dont know, but as long as they have control of it, they will be a superpower

[Kagemusha]

Great work WBK! Like WBK mentioned this is only the farming income.The whole income of some Daymios is boosted very much when you ad the mining and trade to their farming income.Aboout the Uesugi,we have to remember the starting date is 1524.In that year Hojo took Edo from the Southern Ogigayatsu Uesugi and Musashi province was still firmly in Uesugi hands.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Uesugi may seem dominante.. however you need simply look to the north of them to see a rather strong potential rival they must contend with. A rival which will expand rapidly into some rather wealty rebel provinces.