Who caused the Peloponnesian War?

[grouchy13]

it's been awhile since we had a good old fashioned heated debate so lets stoke the fire's abit who in your opinion who caused the Peloponnesian war probably the most destructive war in classical history do you think Imperial Athens was to blame or maybe the belligerent Spartans, even the Polis of Corinth you decide?

[legio_XX]

I would say Athens declaring it self a empire and slaughtering greek citys that tried to leave the so called league was a big factor. It had to happen Athens would have expanded into the Peloponnese sooner or later.

I want to blame Athens but Sparta DID technically declare war (due to Corinth and Megara pushing them) first even though Athens had it coming.

[The Thespian]

I would say either the Athenians and their tiranical rule of the Delian League which was transformed into the Athenian Empire and how they delt with league members who tried to leave, there are 27 examples of what happened to members who tried to leave there alliance,lol (which i can hapily tell you all about thanks to my A Level course in Ancient History)

However i would Also argue that Corinth and Megara are also responsable along with the fact that Sparta kept trying to help the members of the delian league who wanted to leave such as the examples of Naxos,Samos and Thasos.

Although there is also another reaSon behind the start of the war which is that the Spartans considered trying to take back the hegemony of greece and they were also anoyed over the incident surrounding the rebuilding of the Athenian walls. there is also the incident over the Helot revolt and the first peloponnesian war whcih came before the one that we are discusing.

There are also plenty more reasons but at the moent i dont have the time to finish this post so i will just edit it later with all the proper info

[Hopit]

bloody boy lovers! (athenians)

[grouchy13]

i'll pitch my 2 cents in here before Athens gets to much of a bashing, for me i think the Corinthians played a big part there quarrel with Corcyra over Epidamnus and then the formentation of rebellion in Potidea ( a tribute paying vassal of Athens ) lays the blame at there door, you can't blame Athens for having an Empire and the supression of revolts within that Empire as for Corcyra they had a perfectly legimate right to seek a defensive alliance with the Athenians when pressed on by the Corinthians, even though the Corcyrans had defeated the Corinthians in a naval engagement at Actium they knew the weight the Corinthians held in the Peloponnesian leauge and the forces they could harness for a counter offensive so it is perfectly logical for them to go to the Athenians who were the counter balance to the Peloponnesians.
As for the Spartans in a legal sense there decision to support the Corinthians and the Potideans was in relation to the treaty with Athens illegal, i shall explain this as follows the treaty declared that so long as a polis was neither alligned with the Peloponnesian bloc or the Athenians then they were perfectly entitled to pursue a treaty, Corcyra having a treaty with neither Athens or Sparta was acting legitimatly in going to the Athenians to safeguard there intrest in Epidamnus. My personal opinion was that when the Spartans called the league together concerning Potidea they allowed themselves to talked into war by not only the Megarans but also the Corinthians who were acting totally out of there own intrest this being one they had a grudge against the Corcyrans for being a former colony who didn't pay the respect the Corinthians believed they deserved and two the fact that Potidea was another former colony who had fallen under the influence of the Athenians go figure

[The Thespian]

i'll pitch my 2 cents in here before Athens gets to much of a bashing, for me i think the Corinthians played a big part there quarrel with Corcyra over Epidamnus and then the formentation of rebellion in Potidea ( a tribute paying vassal of Athens ) lays the blame at there door, you can't blame Athens for having an Empire and the supression of revolts within that Empire as for Corcyra they had a perfectly legimate right to seek a defensive alliance with the Athenians when pressed on by the Corinthians, even though the Corcyrans had defeated the Corinthians in a naval engagement at Actium they knew the weight the Corinthians held in the Peloponnesian leauge and the forces they could harness for a counter offensive so it is perfectly logical for them to go to the Athenians who were the counter balance to the Peloponnesians.
As for the Spartans in a legal sense there decision to support the Corinthians and the Potideans was in relation to the treaty with Athens illegal, i shall explain this as follows the treaty declared that so long as a polis was neither alligned with the Peloponnesian bloc or the Athenians then they were perfectly entitled to pursue a treaty, Corcyra having a treaty with neither Athens or Sparta was acting legitimatly in going to the Athenians to safeguard there intrest in Epidamnus. My personal opinion was that when the Spartans called the league together concerning Potidea they allowed themselves to talked into war by not only the Megarans but also the Corinthians who were acting totally out of there own intrest this being one they had a grudge against the Corcyrans for being a former colony who didn't pay the respect the Corinthians believed they deserved and two the fact that Potidea was another former colony who had fallen under the influence of the Athenians go figure

well done, yuo have jsut saved me posting another post,i owe you rep

[legio_XX]

^^ ..I see we are all on the same page more or less

[Apollyon]

So much for a "heated debate", you're all agreeing with each other!

I cannot claim much knowledge of the time, All I know is that Sparta won.

[cpdwane]

So much for a "heated debate", you're all agreeing with each other!

That's because our ancient authority over the Pelopenesian War (Thucydides) makes it quite obvious who started it. Athens was partly to blame because of it's belligerance and it's powerful and tyranical Empire, but it was Corinth and Megara that are to blame for dragging Sparta into the war. To start with, it would seem, Sparta was quite reluctant to fight with Athens. That was the thing with Spartans. They were incredibly reluctant to start a war with anyone, (and the Corinthians said as much to them) but once they got started....

I'm currently reading The Pelopennesian War by Thucydides, and I've finished reading the section on the causes of the Pelopennesian war. Last night I read the Funeral Oration of Pericles... quite amazing

[grouchy13]

The funeral oration has got to be one of the most patriotic and inspiring speeches ever made in wartime the only others that compare are Lincolns Gettysburg adress and the speech made by Winston Churchill following the fall of France in WW2

[Athenogoras]

I would say basically any speech referenced by Thucydides in his book is great, although Pericles stands out. When I first read it 10 years ago I really couldnt believe how modern and appealing to reason they were. Thank you Thucydides.
BTW my username(although misspelled by me) is a reference to the leader of the demos in Syracuse(Athenagoras). Which although his predictions were initially(that Athens wouldnt attack) wrong proved right in the end(that if so, they would lose the war).

[Spartan 666]

Here's my opinion. The war was caused by the Athenian megalomany, which made the Spartans fear to become a second-rate state. During the Pentaconteia (the 50 years between the 2nd Persian War and the Peloponnesian War) there were some clashes between the two cities and their allies. The most notable took place in 457 BC, when the Spartans were returning to the Peloponnese after defeating the Phokians, and the Athenians blocked their way. This was the first of a series of battles which eventually lead to a peace, also because Sparta was having more trouble with the Helots and Athens lost a fleet in Egypt against the Persians.

Sparta started to lick her wounds and recover, watching the situation, while Athens became even more aggressive with any city that wasn't allied with Sparta, forcing them to enter the Athenian League. When Athens' power become untolerable, Sparta was forced to declare war, it was only a matter of time. Perikles himself was very aware that Athens' policy would have caused a great war, but did not stop it. He thought that even if Sparta reacted to Athens' policy, victory would have been for Athens, making it the most powerful city and reducing Sparta to a second-rate polis. He did everything to provoke Sparta, but the war did not go as he hoped.

[Spartan198]

Simpsons Athens did it.

[legio_XX]

I have a book called "Athens at war" by thucydides translated by Rex Warner its a realy good fast read about the war its a compression of his full work for any one who wants to be informed with out the coast of to much reading. Tell me in the full version of thucydides peloponnesian war is there more info about pitched battles like Mantinea(mine just states that the spartan won)? After Athens at war im very interested in picking up the full book.

[grouchy13]

I have a book called "Athens at war" by thucydides translated by Rex Warner its a realy good fast read about the war its a compression of his full work for any one who wants to be informed with out the coast of to much reading. Tell me in the full version of thucydides peloponnesian war is there more info about pitched battles like Mantinea(mine just states that the spartan won)? After Athens at war im very interested in picking up the full book.

Another title people might be intrested in is "The Peloponnesian War" by Donald Kagan it is a master piece that took him 30 years to complete it covers the whole war including the fall of Athens and the aftermath of the war not covered in Thucydides classic it also includes other sources from the time making it a more broad and deep account of the conflict. It also includes battle maps covering the main engagements on land and at sea of the war

[Spartan 666]

it covers the whole war including the fall of Athens and the aftermath of the war not covered in Thucydides classic

Thanks for pointing that out, not everyone know that Thucydides' masterpiece cover the Peloponnesian War only up to the battle of Cynossema. The last 7 years of the war are covered in Xenophon's Hellenica, which covers the greek history up to the battle of Mantinea of 362BC.

[The Thespian]

Another title people might be intrested in is "The Peloponnesian War" by Donald Kagan it is a master piece that took him 30 years to complete it covers the whole war including the fall of Athens and the aftermath of the war not covered in Thucydides classic it also includes other sources from the time making it a more broad and deep account of the conflict. It also includes battle maps covering the main engagements on land and at sea of the war

it is a very good read, especially if you are interested in History.

[The Wicked]

Lust for Power.....Nothing more nothing less, the Athenians wanted footholds all around the known world and Corinthians more power.... The dispute between Kerkyra and Epidamnos was just the spark that lighted the war....The Spartans (most of them at least) (they where known for their unwillingness to venture outside Peloponesos because of the constant fear of a healot rising) even if they did feared the increasing power of Athens didn't want to declare war so that's why they ordered the rest of the Peloponesian League not to help Corinth in Kerkyra, only Megara and Elis (i think ) helped and as a result the Athenians declared financial empargo to Megara then the Spartans as leaders of the Peloponesian League ought to help their flock ........the rest is History.......

[Zenith Darksea]

This is an easy one. It was Athens. It had already provoked the First Peloponnesian War earlier in the century, and epigraphic records from the Acropolis make it quite clear that Pericles had been stocking up a war chest of money long before the second (main) war broke out. When you actually look at the events of the outbreak of the war, even Thucydides can't wholly hide the fact that Athens was rampantly interfering in many other cities' affairs to an unacceptable and provocative extent - supporting Corcyra's rebellion against her metropolis Corinth, actually besieging Corinthian troops in Potidaea, enforcing a crushing commercial embargo on the Megarians (who were apparently being driven to starvation), to name just a few. Thucydides does his best to shift the blame off Pericles and onto the Spartans, but not even he can conceal the fact that the Athenians were simply begging for an ass-kicking.

[grouchy13]

This is an easy one. It was Athens. It had already provoked the First Peloponnesian War earlier in the century, and epigraphic records from the Acropolis make it quite clear that Pericles had been stocking up a war chest of money long before the second (main) war broke out. When you actually look at the events of the outbreak of the war, even Thucydides can't wholly hide the fact that Athens was rampantly interfering in many other cities' affairs to an unacceptable and provocative extent - supporting Corcyra's rebellion against her metropolis Corinth, actually besieging Corinthian troops in Potidaea, enforcing a crushing commercial embargo on the Megarians (who were apparently being driven to starvation), to name just a few. Thucydides does his best to shift the blame off Pericles and onto the Spartans, but not even he can conceal the fact that the Athenians were simply begging for an ass-kicking.

I must respectfully disagree with you on a couple of the points you raise here, one even if Pericles had acquired a war chest this could be interpreted as either an act of aggresion/ precursor to the Peloponnesian War as you have raised or Pericles could have foreseen the problems that were certain to arise from the transition of the Delian league to the Athenian Empire and any Empire that requires to send men and and equipment to foriegn shores to either expand or secure their intrest first of all requires money, as for the point you raise concerning Corcyra this was not as you put it a "rebellion" Corcyra had been fiercly independant for some time even considering themselves a superior a naval power than there mother city on the grounds of the original inhabitants of Corcyra the Phaeacians being famous mariners so as you can see just because a city planted a colony does not mean it has claim to the colony's destiny forever look at the modern example of Canada and there relationships to Great Britain. The Corinthian troops you mention in relation to Potidea were despatched after the Potideans (a tribute paying member of the Athenian Bloc) in seing Corinth's dispute with Corcyra as an oppurtunity to cast off the yoke of Athenian dominance and in collusion with Perdiccas of Macedon(a shady double dealer if ever there were one) revolted as soon as the Corinthians still smarting from there defeat at the hands of the Corcyrans and the Athenians at Actium saw the oppurtunity to not only bring a former colony back into the fold but also strike a blow to the Athenians ambitions to the north however there plans were to tutrn to dust following there defeat at Olynthus to Callias forces from Athens. More tellingly even the commander of the force despatched by Corinth Aristus was known as a friend and staunch supporter of Potidean independance from Athens but in this lies the crux of my point. Far from being an aggressor i believe Athens was acting in defence of there own interests the Corinthians on the other hand acted out of not only anger and feelings of revenge over the afore mentioned Athenian victory at Actium but also with a view to further there own intrests over former colonys and if that meant bringing the whole of Hellas into the conflict as history proved was a price the Corinthians were willing to pay