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  1. #1
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    I have long been irritated by the lack of an objective moral rule and in my conceit I have attempted to construct such a system without the aid of divinity or relativity. Mutualism is the result of that effort, though far from complete or perfect (yet) I hope that eventually I can claim that victory. With the aid of the debaters in this forum I have little doubt the rough edges will be polished.

    Mutualism

    Often we are presented with a false choice. That choice is to be selfless or selfish. In conventional morality these two choices are considered good and evil respectively. How can one be entirely selfless though? If one person is selfless does it not imply that someone is being selfish? In social interaction the concept of mutualism isn’t that one party benefits exclusively, or that another party benefits exclusively, but that the most moral pathway is that which both parties benefit fairly and that this moral pathway is the only way for humans to not only progress and succeed but rather to thrive.

    Too long has immorality been tolerated and justified. Humanity has progressed to the point where slight immorality becomes intolerable. In a day and age where the entire fate of the species could be determined by a single immoral individual the danger of selfishness becomes apparent. What society needs is a true objective morality. Mutualism attempts to become this morality.

    The concept of mutualism takes its inspiration from natural biological relationships. One should note however that mutualism only applies to person to person relationships. True flower power is not contained within the flower’s ability to populate the world, but in the flower’s ability to so benefit those around it so much so that they benefit the flower. This is the essence of the mutual relationship. Together the flower and the bee overcome the limitations of either one independently. No bee can make honey from nothing and no flower can walk.

    Often in the world parasitic relationships are observed much to the detriment of the hosts. The parasite feeds off of the host and uses the host only to further its own selfish goals. In this relationship the benefit is clearly to the parasite that lives off of its host’s effort with little effort of its own. This is a cunning natural commentary on selfishness. Blind satisfaction of your selfish needs is not conducive to society in general because selfish needs are inherently fragmented and individual. Is the host guilty for this parasite? No, the parasite is guilty of evil entirely its own. One should be careful in concluding that giving is inherently good then. The mutualist would challenge such an assertion. The individual is good, and that cannot be denied, but as soon as we take into account the parasite the morality of the interaction falls apart. The giving of the host (unconscious or not) is perverted by the inherently evil taking of the parasite.

    Benign interaction does not imply morality either. Benign entities feed off of the waste, refuse, and excesses that others would rather leave behind. The Mutualist has a moral obligation to help those around them so long as they are capable; inaction is perversion and does not serve the greater good. Why be satisfied with benign interaction when the interaction serves both so much more when it is mutually beneficial? Simple lack of knowledge of the benign entity is not an excuse. The mutualist has a moral obligation to know their world. If they cannot understand their world they cannot make moral decisions. Only through understanding your choices will the limited few moral pathways present themselves.

    It is clear that both selfishness and neutrality result at best maintaining the status quo and at worst evil. A mutualistic relationship is one that both creatures put in effort and both creatures receive benefits; yet, these benefits are multiplied by the individual contributions of both creatures dramatically surpassing the individual limits of either creature on its own. The wild success of angiosperm is very telling of the power of a mutual relationship. The weaknesses of the individual(s) are compensated for by the other(s) and vice versa. Bees move a flower’s pollen to other flowers, and bees are rewarded with nectar. The beautiful simplicity of this relationship is obvious.

    Who in mutualist relationship is evil? We cannot say either party is evil because both parties fairly require something and both parties fairly have their requirements satisfied. If benevolence is good, mutual benevolence is better. Just like flowers, we as finite beings must enlist the aid of others to break free of our natural limitations and seek true objective morality.

    The greater good is a concept that, in the end, all things add up to either good or evil. In the concept of mutualism true greater good can always be achieved. The concept of the greater good is applied relatively but not selectively. If two individuals are interacting, for the greater good to be satisfied the two must interact in a mutually beneficial way; however, if their interactions begin to involve other people the sum of the actions must benefit all of the people involved. I.e. the greater good is not served unless all peoples at all levels of organization are benefitted by the interaction.

    It is important to note that the greater good does not represent a supernatural being but rather the aggregate morality of those working together. The more who work together, the stronger the greater good is and thus the better benefits all peoples within its influence experience. This greater good represents the speed at which cooperation can happen within a society. The greater the good, the greater the progress of the society. Societies which out-advance their moralities are in imminent danger of destroying themselves.

    This brings up the conundrum of whether individual actions benefit the population at large. The greater good asserts that, though this contribution may become diluted by the contributions of others continuously serving their moralities, a good person always means a good influence upon the world. No single person’s value can be understated, yet the value of that which is achieved by the masses is only as great as the value that those put in. One for all, and all for one.

    No raindrop fills a glass; the raindrop has natural limitations which it cannot overcome. Two raindrops do not fill a glass either; the raindrops have smaller limitations but they are still limited. A thousand raindrops fill the glass; here we can say the raindrops have overcome their individual limitations. People, as raindrops, are naturally limited. It is only by enlisting the aid of others we overcome this limitation because it takes many drops to fill an ocean.

    It is not that we do not necessarily have the capability to keep surviving. We plausibly could maintain the status quo indefinitely. It is that the danger of knowledge that offers us an impetus to temper it with morality combined with the desire not to simply survive but also to thrive. We have advanced to the day and the age where there are a considerable amount of people who could really destroy civilization as we know it. This capacity requires moral scruples as strong and universal as knowledge has become. Assuming we desire to advance in knowledge and civilization when it is likely that every person in the future will know how to destroy every other we must adopt either censors or morals. The freedom of knowledge can only be established through morality.

    Mutualism neatly solves many moral conundrums which seem to test an individual’s respect of law, or relative moral obligations. By taking the path in which the individuals both benefit the greater good, objective morality can be achieved and moral rule independent of divine law or relative philosophy can be established. Many moralities pale when presented with the question, at what point does benefit become harm? Many solve this by urging abstinence from that which benefits you. Others solve this by urging acceptance of that benefit and claiming it without regard. To the mutualist however; this line is apparent. The line in which a benefit becomes a perversion is that line that represents when an action stops benefitting the greater good.

    Altruism interestingly mutates under the paradigm of this philosophy. If we accept that altruism is in essence goodness then mutual benefit surpasses the concept of selflessness that altruism popularly represents and becomes a concept entirely more complicated yet entirely more satisfying. No longer is someone uncomfortably forced to represent the taker, no longer are those who give away all of their possessions to the parasites around them considered paragons of the greater good. Altruism is no longer a concept possessed by the individual but a concept only attainable through the interaction towards the benefit of both parties.

    In regards to the greater good, helping someone may not pay off for a long time. Thus we can consider charity a good that just hasn't paid off yet. Charity therefore represents any action in which the repayment is at a later time. It’s important to realize that fairness does not necessarily dictate a mutually beneficial exchange but merely the promise of a mutually beneficial exchange. This promise must be kept to serve the greater good or the individual is betraying the trust of the mutualist and thus perverting the goodness of the act.

    Perversion is seen as the degree of difference between the ideal moral decision(s) and the chosen immoral decision. As humans we must accept the concept that perversion can destroy the greater good itself. Every evil action that a man engages in has far reaching implications drawing more and more people into its sphere of influence. Perversion has a similar power to that of the greater good but it works in entirely the opposite direction.

    Unlike the greater good perversion merely results in corruption, fragmentation and eventual societal failure by over emphasizing a specific group or individual. In Austria a young boy witnessed anti-Semitism; decades later he had found himself in a position to apply such an insignificant evil to millions resulting in one of the most morally reprehensible times in human history. The act of evil which was so insignificant to those at the time grew exponentially as each opportunity to quell it was lost to time.

    How does one end perversion? Perversion must be ended through mutualism. Perversion is by nature defensive because it is not a trait many value. In the attempt to defend itself perversion will grow stronger, deeper and wider. Attacking perversion simply results in more perversion. The Greeks represented this concept in the story of Hercules with their idea of the Hydra. A beast that no matter how many times you attempt to slay merely grows stronger.

    In the story, Hercules slays the monster by cauterizing the wounds with fire. Modern day interpretation of this story is that there’s simply another way to kill the beast. While, in essence, this is true we must consider what the Greek’s conception of fire was. In ancient Greek society, fire was seen as a ‘gift’ from the gods. A gift the great hero Prometheus had to steal from the selfish gods to give to man. Fire was seen as the essence of goodness, life, and order and represented the ultimate power of man to overcome any obstacle.

    From this perspective we can see Hercules was not cauterizing the wounds with burning painful flame but rather it was the essence of goodness that allowed Hercules to finally defeat the beast. As Hercules did, we must not attack perversion less it overcomes us and defeats us, we must encourage the perversion to wither on its own. When perversion is brought into the light of goodness the wound it leaves ceases to fester. When the wound is gone the perversion can be corrected through the utilization of the greater good. One does not feel the need to defend one’s self from something so plainly beneficial.

    Mutualism further refutes the concept that morality is equal to justification. Justification is merely reasoning, necessity and does not imply morality. Morality instead thrives as an ideal all can hold themselves to yet, even if an individual fails to reach that ideal they have context for improvement. We cannot be content with immoral actions because they are justified, we must continuously ask ourselves how this interaction could better serve the greater good. As moral individuals we must learn from these perversions of morality called justification to better serve the greater good in the future.

    To many this may sound as though the ends must justify the means. This is not true with respect to the greater good however. Any immoral means perverts your eventual end. True moral ideals cannot be established this way. The end justifying the means implies only justification. A logical decision when presented with few choices perhaps but the decision may change depending on the logical argument applied to it. The greater good however is an all encompassing morality which denies that any individual is ever put into circumstances in which a moral outcome do not or did not exist. It is the duty of the mutualist to aim for those moral outcomes in all situations.

    One might ask what rights do humans have? With respect to the greater good the desired outcome for society is a society with as little individual hardship as possible yet with the maximum shared happiness it can obtain. In this we find that all humans must be guaranteed the right to seek happiness. At the same time we must remember this happiness is not found in the disenfranchisement of others but rather as a result of the cooperation of many to receive mutual benefit. Some have unconventional methods or desires to obtain happiness. These can be met so long as the desire is not perverse by a mutualistic standard.

    Betrayal, revenge and punishment have also confused many philosophers. To the mutualist all of these concepts are considered immoral with but may be justifiable with respect for how their particular definitions are satisfied. Betrayal is considered justifiable but never moral. To betray someone is to violate their trust in you and by violating their trust you take from them what isn’t fairly yours. Similarly by seeking revenge you may be justified but you are never moral; even though they took from you attempting to find retribution at their loss is inherently wrong. The same system can be applied to any concept.

    Mutualism deals slightly differently with respect to life and death. Life is of infinite possibility. Throughout our existence we are only limited by the time our death comes. If our death comes early we lose that infinite possibility. Thus, the death of any person must be considered an infinite loss. This infinite loss is infinite because of the nature of human perspective. We can never quantify what someone might have done, or become after the moment of their death because their timelines cease to exist after that moment. Thus to kill someone is to inflict an infinite evil upon them. In essence you are taking from them what they could’ve been, the possibility of vindication, as well as the possibility of rehabilitation.

    This infinite evil has much further reaching implications than a perversion such as racism. It was the evil perception that life was disposable that made such weak racism powerful. It was the evil contained within the ideal. Not that an idea was worth dying for, but rather that an idea was worth killing for. No man can ever call a war moral and no man can ever call a murder moral. Limited as we are, our perception limits us to justification. No morality is to be had in this justification, thus with respect to the greater good one can never morally kill another. One can merely justify it. Justification must be seen as inherently flawed in its perversion. Morality is the ideal of not just one situation but every situation.

    Only through steadfast confidence in the power of good to triumph over evil will we progress towards true morality and true utopia. One must remember that the good guys always win. While it might seem easier to run a lap than a marathon the accomplishment is so much greater. Nice guys do finish last but not because they’re racing against bad guys, but because the bad guys could never hope to perform the long term race that the success of humanity requires. The very things that erode relationships destroy both our future, and our utopia.

    In the end no man can be considered morally perfect, but is not perfection our goal? So long as we measure ourselves against this morality and refuse to be content with the justification of weaker moralities we can progress towards goodness. So long as the greater good is served society will progress. So long as the greater good is served, individuals will thrive. The question is not, why should we be good, but rather, why wouldn’t we be?
    Last edited by Elfdude; April 24, 2010 at 04:56 AM.

  2. #2
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    So you don't think no one is "listening" I'm reserving this section to respond. I see already where I can be helpful in your pursuit, but I'm afraid your effort may be in vain. More later. Have school projects to finish up.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  3. #3
    gambit's Avatar Gorak
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    This interests me too but right now it's tl;dr, I'm off for a smoke
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I have long been irritated by the lack of an objective moral rule and in my conceit I have attempted to construct such a system without the aid of divinity or relativity.
    Not based on a 2000 year old static, fallible text? :o

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    IOften we are presented with a false choice. That choice is to be selfless or selfish.
    For every person who chooses the latter it is another blow at the progress of humanity, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    IIn conventional morality these two choices are considered good and evil respectively. How can one be entirely selfless though?
    I doubt anyone can be. They do, have the ability to aspire to it passionately if they indeed chose such a path. I think blind selflessness can outweigh it's good intentions but is ultimately better than blind selfishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    Too long has immorality been tolerated and justified. Humanity has progressed to the point where slight immorality becomes intolerable. In a day and age where the entire fate of the species could be determined by a single immoral individual the danger of selfishness becomes apparent. What society needs is a true objective morality. Mutualism attempts to become this morality.
    No, no. We need to go to back to the dark ages. It was the morally superior based on a false interpretation on the unconfirmable word of an uncomfirmable God!1

    I think your distinction between moral actions and justifiable actions is quite interesting and it is something I have never though about.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude
    The question is not, why should we be good, but rather, why wouldn’t we be?
    Yes. Why shouldn't we aid others which also in turn aids ourselves? Why shouldn't we focus on the scientific progress, growth, health, prosperity and ensure the future of our species from things like natural disasters and galatic catastrophes. I think it's stagnating how much it seems that religion and politics halt scientific progress and mutually they both rely on immoral exploition of peoples gullibility and "small time issues" for meaningless, self-serving ends.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    I like the general idea here ~ if I got it right, but I cant see many people reading all that on a forum. Perhaps break it all down into principles kinda like equations of meanings and add a few examples of how they work? + rep all the same.

    Life is of infinite possibility.
    Some possible flaws are; If the mind/soul or whatever is recyclable in some manner, then there can be benefits in terms of infinite possibilities, if it is terminated early. For example old age could be seen as detrimental to potential, equally lesser genes could be [if we can assert that some people are lesser than others from birth {i am not sure if its true of course]. Such things tie in with…

    This infinite evil has much further reaching implications than a perversion such as racism. It was the evil perception that life was disposable that made such weak racism powerful.
    What if some lives are disposable? Unless we can show that all people are born equal in potential [which I believe], then you have an inequality, and it may even be in part relative to race, societal position or other such distinctions.

    My guess is that brains are the same in all humans, so its simply a case of culture/upbringing + education and they are the only factors truly involved.
    Now we can ask if education should be entirely equal and social class disposed of!
    What happens when all things begin at 0 and everyone are kept at the same grades etc ~ which you would need to enforce this rule? Do we no longer get geniuses or some intelligent some not? Something in a geniuses life causes certain areas of the brain to be used more than others, just as certain things create a mathematician instead of a sociologist.

    If then we accept difference and inequality, do we not create the scenario of better and lesser individuals? If we don’t, then do we not create an absence greatness and betterment, along with the disposition towards such things. I would think of this as perhaps devolutionary?
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    These are the central tenets of the morality since it seems the long version is a bit difficult to interpret.

    A. Human perspective is limited by the time we are on this earth
    B. Individuals are limited by individuality
    C. Cooperation allows us to overcome that limitation
    D. There is always a truly moral action we can choose
    E. The truly moral action is one that results in mutual benefit
    F. There is a limited few moral pathways towards this ideal
    G. Justification is merely justification, pragmatism and not a moral ideal
    H. Through knowledge of our world does true morality present itself
    I. Ignorance results in immorality
    J. Inaction results in immorality
    K. Disenfranchisement results in immorality
    L. These immoralities can be consider perversions because they can be fixed through enlightenment
    M. Like the story of Hercules and the hydra attempting to fight immorality results in more immorality
    N. In order to overcome the immorality we must not attack it but utilize the incentive of benefit to reverse it
    O. Immorality does not represent an equal exchange but merely the promise of mutual benefit
    P. Betraying that trust is equal to taking what is not yours and destroys cooperation
    Q. Because our perception is limited by time we cannot conclude that taking a life is ever good
    R. Thus because we are taking and destroying a timeline of infinite possibility we are committing an infinite evil
    S. One can justify taking a life but that amounts to justification and shouldn't be seen as the moral ideal
    T. Society and the individual thrive when these tenets are held to be true and are fragmented and destroyed through perversion towards evil

    Arch did a pretty good summary, from these points you would treat everyone as though they were born equal ideally.
    Last edited by Elfdude; April 27, 2010 at 12:43 AM.

  7. #7
    Lord Wiffleby's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    These are the central tenets of the morality since it seems the long version is a bit difficult to interpret.
    This system is intriguing, but if I may I just respond to some of your tennets...

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    A. Human perspective is limited by the time we are on this earth
    B. Individuals are limited by individuality
    C. Cooperation allows us to overcome that limitation
    D. There is always a truly moral action we can choose
    E. The truly moral action is one that results in mutual benefit
    F. There is a limited few moral pathways towards this ideal
    G. Justification is merely justification, pragmatism and not a moral ideal
    H. Through knowledge of our world does true morality present itself
    I. Ignorance results in immorality
    J. Inaction results in immorality
    K. Disenfranchisement results in immorality
    L. These immoralities can be consider perversions because they can be fixed through enlightenment
    M. Like the story of Hercules and the hydra attempting to fight immorality results in more immorality
    N. In order to overcome the immorality we must not attack it but utilize the incentive of benefit to reverse it
    O. Immorality does not represent an equal exchange but merely the promise of mutual benefit
    P. Betraying that trust is equal to taking what is not yours and destroys cooperation
    Q. Because our perception is limited by time we cannot conclude that taking a life is ever good
    R. Thus because we are taking and destroying a timeline of infinite possibility we are committing an infinite evil
    S. One can justify taking a life but that amounts to justification and shouldn't be seen as the moral ideal
    T. Society and the individual thrive when these tenets are held to be true and are fragmented and destroyed through perversion towards evil

    Arch did a pretty good summary, from these points you would treat everyone as though they were born equal ideally.
    Your system seems to be based around the rather optimistic idea that people want to be moral, which is a laughable concept in my opinion. I'm a Christian, and even I don't truly "enjoy" following the moral code I chose.

    Also, you believe that cooperation makes everyone stronger, which, technically is true. However, greed makes one person much stronger than everyone else. It is therefore inevitable that human kind will break this moral code, even if it agrees with it in spirit. In my religion (Christianity), the law was given to convict people of the fact that they were simply unable to follow a moral code under their own free will.

    If you want to be truly selfless, you could give up simple luxuries like going to eat out, or upgrading to new technology, and then give that money to the poor. Yet I doubt any of us do that, or ever would. To end some of the tragedies in this world, we could go ask certain governments to stop slaughtering their people for a change. How do you get them to cooperate, hugs? The moral system you have encoded does not define "cooperation," which leaves the term open to flexibility and rationalization.

    So, to sum up, your resolve is admirable, but you are still only human, which leaves no power to enforce your decisions, which means that a large quantity of people will not obey you. Might makes right in this world, that's how it is, has been, and always will be. If you wanted everyone to even get close to perfectly following this code, you would have to take away all of their freedom, which is exactly what God decided not to do, hence the state of the world.

    If you don't want to believe me on this, then don't. I'm a skeptical cynic. However, I have warned that you that no matter how much good you see in humanity, there will always be corruption and evil.



  8. #8

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    all true but mutualism could serve as a basis for political models like cooperatives. everyone would get their fair shares then.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Wiffleby View Post
    So, to sum up, your resolve is admirable, but you are still only human, which leaves no power to enforce your decisions, which means that a large quantity of people will not obey you. Might makes right in this world, that's how it is, has been, and always will be. If you wanted everyone to even get close to perfectly following this code, you would have to take away all of their freedom
    Which is why people generally try to explain why all rational men (whom we always hope to be the majority) would agree to accept the concept or provide a way of explaining how all men could be forced to be bound to it.

    Neither has been provided here. In fact, any rational man ought to turn down this concept; given the ease with which an unscrupulous outsider could take advantage of the system. You seem to have the problem faced by the social contract theorists, "why ought anyone agree to enter into the contract?"

    Also, just as an aside; people are incapable of being objective. All men are subjective in their perception, being as it is their perception. Any morality is going to be subjective, I doubt there is any moral tenet universal to all men.
    Last edited by Ardruire Iacób; May 01, 2010 at 11:28 AM.

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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    People aren't born equal Quetsalcoatl, the point is we should treat people as if they were born equal, is that the jist Elfdude? It's for the greater good.

    If you think we're all born equal: watch the olympics.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    People aren't born equal Quetsalcoatl, the point is we should treat people as if they were born equal,
    This may be true physically, though I am unsure if it is mentally so. All brains are roughly the same at birth, you may get smaller or bigger brains but that doesn’t change the potential. Bigger brains have larger connections, so like computers it doesn’t follow that they perform better ~ often it’s the opposite. The fact is brains are incredible, a tiny part could perform the tasks of a calculator, yet no person can, a bigger part can perform the tasks of a pc, but no person does. There is simply a vast gap between what brains can do and their utility. This is why it all comes down to environments and education.
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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    In many ways the brain is like a muscle, it can be trained and conditioned, but if something goes wrong in it's forming (car accident, a violent attack etc.) it will be at a serious disadvantage, and sometimes little things happen, even after birth that are hardle noticeable but lead to disadvantages in the future. There's a lot we don't know about our brains.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    i dont think that relevant to the principle, which is for able bodied people. even then the brain can make up for some loss.

    anyways lets here what elfy has to say before we go off on one.
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    i dont think that relevant to the principle, which is for able bodied people. even then the brain can make up for some loss.

    anyways lets here what elfy has to say before we go off on one.
    The brain is part of the body.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Holy wall of text Batman. I find this intriguing and I'll read the entire thing when I have the chance.

    However, at times I have to say that I find an over-rationalization of morality to be undesirable. Why can't there just be things which are? Why can't there be some intrinsic human drive to be good and moral, which separates us from animals? I'm scared to even say such a thing, believing in logic as I do, but I would rather feel something is wrong just because I feel it is than feel something is wrong because I have several logical proofs that it is so.

    I've probably misconstrued your goal here, though.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Justinian

    Why can't there be some intrinsic human drive to be good and moral, which separates us from animals?
    I think animals are the same, they just have to eat. Birds will share the same tree and eat specialised diets so as to be non confrontational ~ in a manner. Perhaps specialisation is part of what the op meant? All things just want to live and be, defence and attack [survival of the fittest] are secondary to that, although I expect chasing things is rather good fun for predators ~ beats boredom.

    elfdude
    You didn’t answer my points above, but thanks for simplifying anyway.

    I would like to filter out some aspects…

    D. There is always a truly moral action we can choose
    E. The truly moral action is one that results in mutual benefit
    Yes but there is no reason why we should choose the mutually beneficial option. Hence the morality is relative until you can provide objective reasons why.
    For example a rich man may choose to keep all his money to himself, where the mutual benefit would be if he invested it or shared it in another way. Mostly the rich work towards their own benefit, if they shared equally there would be no rich or poor. People will have sex with another for entirely selfish reasons and pleasure fulfilment.

    F. There is a limited few moral pathways towards this ideal
    Sounds inflexible can you name them?

    S. One can justify taking a life but that amounts to justification and shouldn't be seen as the moral ideal
    What if that person is suffering from a terminal illness, and it would be better for them if their life was terminated [and they may not be in a position to ask you to or not to do it]?


    i think you are onto something for sure, i call it universalism, but mutualism will do.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  17. #17
    vlach's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    I'm sorry but there is already a mathematical discipline that has set the principles you talk about called game theory which aims to find the path of greatest mutual benefit. Of course this is a practical discipline, but since I see that you have linked materialism and practicality, to morality you have presented nothing new. The main flaw is that this is informative regards to short term choices and a limited amount of people. We can not evaluate the best course of action whenever there is a choice to make when it comes to millions across many nations. And there is a certain inherent disadvantage with becoming predictable and it is essentially dependent
    upon mutual agreement (hence the name I guess) but someone can take advantage of that. I don't understand why justification isn't part of morality, when mutualism is itself justification for action since it is for mutual benefit. Be careful of ideals they are a thorny flower quickly fading at it's best when viewed from afar. That is my view.
    Deşteaptă-te române din somnul tau de moarte
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    good points there! ^^
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    i think you are onto something for sure, i call it universalism,

    This hits upon an important distinction.

    Personally I don't believe 'objective' morality is even conceptually possible as morality itself derives from and depends on a human existence.

    Therefore, no matter how universal to humans the moral system you devise is, it is still relative to the human condition/human experience/human existence. For objective morality to exist in the universe independent of humans, your objective moral system would have to apply to all forms or life and any alien life we haven't identified. Which doesn't make sense. Morality, at the very least, is relative to species. Objective laws of nature like Gravity apply to all forms of life indiscriminately. Morality does not apply the same way.

    Elfdude posts some interesting ideas but they do not constitute 'objective' morality. Maybe it is possible to derive universal human moral heuristics but I still think you will find examples of cultural relativity when it comes to morality.
    Last edited by chilon; May 01, 2010 at 01:01 PM.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Objective Morality: The Greater Good & Mutualism

    Therefore, no matter how universal to humans the moral system you devise is, it is still relative to the human condition/human experience/human existence.
    True but the human condition is entirely composed of universals as the universe is. I agree it is in flux though, however there are certain morals that always apply, usually ones that are detrimental to other humans, it is the manner in which they apply that changes.

    Equally we have to account for human stupidity, selfishness and immorality, thus we need principles on all levels, just as we have now but continually improved.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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