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Thread: Does Free Will Exist?

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  1. #1

    Default Does Free Will Exist?

    I was thinking the other day. Does natural free will exist?

    If everything in the universe is governed by law of physics including the tiny building block atoms in what way do we have free will. Isn't a decision just a result of neurons firing and atoms acting as a result of these physical laws? What does it really mean to make a decision?

    People are often saturated with the illusion that making a choice is a conscious effort of the mind, but sometimes fail to realize all it is, is a combination of neural connections. So are we really making a decision or are atoms just moving and behaving like they are supposed to thus making the illusion that we are making a real decision? Isn't just an illusion that you are the one really making the decision?

    In theory, we can predict what one will decide and how the universe formed by just analyzing all the atoms. Of course this is in theory, not instrument could ever do just a thing in the near future.

    Here's a few quotes regarding Free Will and Determinism:

    Peter van Inwagen
    If determinism is true, then our acts are the consequences of the laws of nature and events in the remote past. But it is not up to us what went on before we were born, and neither is it up to us what the laws of nature are. Therefore, the consequences of these things (including our present acts) are not up to us.
    J.J.C. Smart
    Dl. I shall state the view that there is "unbroken causal continuity" in the universe as follows. It is in principle possible to make a sufficiently precise determination of the state of a sufficiently wide region of the universe at time to, and sufficient laws of nature are in principle ascertainable to enable a superhuman calculator to be able to predict any event occurring within that region at an already given time t'.
    D2. I shall define the view that "pure chance" reigns to some extent within the universe as follows. There are some events that even a superhuman calculator could not predict, however precise his knowledge of however wide a region of the universe at some previous time.
    For the believer in free will holds that no theory of a deterministic sort or of a pure chance sort will apply to everything in the universe: he must therefore envisage a theory of a type which is neither deterministic nor indeterministic in the senses of these words which I have specified by the two definitions DI and D2; and I shall argue that no such theory is possible.
    ("Free-Will, Praise and Blame," Mind, July 1961, reprinted in Dworkin, 1970)
    Max Planck
    "Let us ask for a moment whether the human will is free or whether it is determined in a strictly causal way. These two alternatives seem definitely to exclude one another. And as the former has obviously to be answered in the affirmative, so the assumption of a law of strict causality operating in the universe seems to be reduced to an absurdity in at least this one instance. In other words, if we assume the law of strict dynamic causality as existing throughout the universe, how can we logically exclude the human will from its operation?... "Recent developments in physical science [viz., quantum indeterminacy] have come into play here, and the freedom of the human will has been put forward as offering logical grounds for the acceptance of only a statistical causality operative in the physical universe. As I have already stated on other occasions, I do not at all agree with this attitude. If we should accept it, then the logical result would be to reduce the human will to an organ which would be subject to the sway of mere blind chance."
    (Where Is Science Going?, Ox Bow Press, 1981 (1933), p.101-105)
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  2. #2

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    I have never seen a stranger man.
    I check into small hotel a few kilometers from Kiev. It is late. I am tired. I tell woman at desk I want a room. She tells me room number and give key. "But one more thing comrade; there is one room without number and always lock. Don't even peek in there." I take key and go to room to sleep. Night comes and I hear trickling of water. It comes from the room across. I cannot sleep so I open door. It is coming from room with no number. I pound on door. No response. I look in keyhole. I see nothing except red. Water still trickling. I go down to front desk to complain. "By the way who is in that room?" She look at me and begin to tell story. There was woman in there. Murdered by her husband. Skin all white, except her eyes, which were red. I tell her I don't give a . Stop the water trickling or give me refund. She gave me 100 ruble credit and free breakfast. Such is life in Moscow

  3. #3

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moorish guy View Post
    I have never seen a stranger man.
    No but really, read more closely and think about it. This isn't as far-fetched as it seems. After all isn't a thought the result of neuron firings and the minute interactions of atoms??
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  4. #4
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    No but really, read more closely and think about it. This isn't as far-fetched as it seems. After all isn't a thought the result of neuron firings and the minute interactions of atoms??
    A mechanistic explanation of the thought process doesn't make thought any less free. Where the absurd notion that simply explaining something made it any less wonderful or true came from, I have no idea.

  5. #5
    gambit's Avatar Gorak
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    A mechanistic explanation of the thought process doesn't make thought any less free. Where the absurd notion that simply explaining something made it any less wonderful or true came from, I have no idea.
    my thoughts exactly. You've delved yourself into some sort of pseudo-thinking and instead of simply looking around and seeing things, you're taking everything as if it's the ultimate truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter S. Thompson
    You better take care of me, Lord. If you dont.. you're gonna have me on your hands

  6. #6

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    well those neurons would not move unless we told them to.

    Metaphorically speaking of course.
    I check into small hotel a few kilometers from Kiev. It is late. I am tired. I tell woman at desk I want a room. She tells me room number and give key. "But one more thing comrade; there is one room without number and always lock. Don't even peek in there." I take key and go to room to sleep. Night comes and I hear trickling of water. It comes from the room across. I cannot sleep so I open door. It is coming from room with no number. I pound on door. No response. I look in keyhole. I see nothing except red. Water still trickling. I go down to front desk to complain. "By the way who is in that room?" She look at me and begin to tell story. There was woman in there. Murdered by her husband. Skin all white, except her eyes, which were red. I tell her I don't give a . Stop the water trickling or give me refund. She gave me 100 ruble credit and free breakfast. Such is life in Moscow

  7. #7
    Caliph's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Free-will can easily be proven through first-hand experience as a mentally sound human being.

  8. #8
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    In theory, we can predict what one will decide and how the universe formed by just analyzing all the atoms.
    I used to be a die hard determinist and believe that but it just doesn't make sense in light of modern physics and mathematics.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    I used to be a die hard determinist and believe that but it just doesn't make sense in light of modern physics and mathematics.
    I'm not determinist per se. But I believe there are some valid points that determinism points out, that are worthy of discussion. After all, we often forget that what drives everything are just chemical reactions and behaviour of atoms. A feeling is a result of such chemical reactions, even though we mask the notion of a feeling with some many layers, the fundamental reason is forgotten.
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  10. #10

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moorish guy View Post
    well those neurons would not move unless we told them to.

    Metaphorically speaking of course.
    We told them to? Atoms move as a result of the laws of physics and interactions with other atoms. This results in neuron connections and thus activity.

    Free-will can easily be proven through first-hand experience as a mentally sound human being.
    You and me can make free decisions, of course, but that's only relative to our larger selves. If we look at the atoms that actually support the neural connections and thus the decision, we see a whole different story. These atoms are moving because they have to move not because they have been ordered to move. They have to move to certain locations because of physical laws. And the process of making an actual decision free of everything becomes an illusion.
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  11. #11

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    [QUOTE=Lord Mov;7201979]We told them to? Atoms move as a result of the laws of physics and interactions with other atoms. This results in neuron connections and thus activity.



    QUOTE]
    oh I thought you meant the neurons in a brain.
    I check into small hotel a few kilometers from Kiev. It is late. I am tired. I tell woman at desk I want a room. She tells me room number and give key. "But one more thing comrade; there is one room without number and always lock. Don't even peek in there." I take key and go to room to sleep. Night comes and I hear trickling of water. It comes from the room across. I cannot sleep so I open door. It is coming from room with no number. I pound on door. No response. I look in keyhole. I see nothing except red. Water still trickling. I go down to front desk to complain. "By the way who is in that room?" She look at me and begin to tell story. There was woman in there. Murdered by her husband. Skin all white, except her eyes, which were red. I tell her I don't give a . Stop the water trickling or give me refund. She gave me 100 ruble credit and free breakfast. Such is life in Moscow

  12. #12
    Caliph's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    You and me can make free decisions, of course, but that's only relative to our larger selves. If we look at the atoms that actually support the neural connections and thus the decision, we see a whole different story. These atoms are moving because they have to move not because they have been ordered to move. They have to move to certain locations because of physical laws. And the process of making an actual decision free of everything becomes an illusion.
    What's relative to our larger selves certainly is most relevant. So everytime we'll answer the question do we have free-will, we'll use the most relative definition. The fact that we have no control over atom movement means we are constrained to the laws of physics which is seperate of free-will.

  13. #13
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    behaviour of atoms.
    Which is unpredictable (quantum physics, chaos theory etc).

    Anyway, to a certain extent I agree, everything we do is a result of our previous experiences and actions.
    There may be an illusion of free choice but in the end the result is predetermined by our life up to that point.

  14. #14
    ROFL Copter's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    It has to be relative. If you believe it is your free will then it is. It is all laws we have set on ourselves.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    If you believe everything you do is predictable, what am I going to do now?

    ....


    ....


    ....


    ....



    ....

    You cant.
    ....

    ....

    Why did I put these dot's? Because I did it on my own free will.

  16. #16
    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Story Brah View Post
    If you believe everything you do is predictable, what am I going to do now?

    ....


    ....


    ....


    ....



    ....

    You cant.
    ....

    ....

    Why did I put these dot's? Because I did it on my own free will.
    I knew you'd do that.

  17. #17
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Story Brah View Post
    If you believe everything you do is predictable, what am I going to do now?

    ....


    ....


    ....


    ....



    ....

    You cant.
    ....

    ....

    Why did I put these dot's? Because I did it on my own free will.
    How could I know what you are going to do?
    All I can say is that, you being how you are, you really had no other choice,
    although there exists an illusion of choice, that some like to call free will.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    How could I know what you are going to do?
    All I can say is that, you being how you are, you really had no other choice,
    although there exists an illusion of choice, that some like to call free will.
    Determinism is the philosophical view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by prior events.


    Ahh, from my previous post's can you determine what my next post can be like?

  19. #19
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Story Brah View Post

    Ahh, from my previous post's can you determine what my next post can be like?
    No, I cannot, even you yourself can't. However, that doesn't imply that you have real choices.

  20. #20
    empr guy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Does Free Will Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Story Brah View Post
    If you believe everything you do is predictable, what am I going to do now?

    ....


    ....


    ....


    ....



    ....

    You cant.
    ....

    ....

    Why did I put these dot's? Because I did it on my own free will.

    im fairly cetain the counter would be you only did that because of this thread and it wasnt a free action but heavily influenced at the least. Or something like that...

    I personaly have no idea though...
    odi et amo quare id faciam fortasse requiris / nescio sed fieri sentio et excrucior


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