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    Default The Vandal Sack of Rome

    The Vandal sack of Rome is one of the most notorious events in history, by which the Vandals gained a lasting, but wrongful reputation. Thus I wanted to present a few thoughts on it.


    The story so far…

    By 455 the Vandal Kingdom in Africa had been established as major power of the Mediterranean. King Gaiseric, an old man born near Balaton in Pannonia, had led his people and various others on a perilous march through the old Roman Empire, and created a new powerful kingdom in Africa. The naval power of the Vandals – or the lack of a proper Roman military fleet – ensured Gaiseric raids on the Italian shores were soon felt at the Imperial court.
    However with immanent threats and internal quarrels, there was little choice left but to accept Vandal rule over Africa. In 442 a treaty affirmed the Vandal possessions, but more important a dynastic alliance had been formed. Gaiseric’s son Huneric was betrothed to Theodosius’ granddaughter Eudocia, daughter of Valentinian and Eudoxia. The alliance lasted, and indeed Vandal fleet operations supported Flavius Aetius’ actions in 447, but the stage for the sack of Rome was set.
    It was not long after Aetius was murdered that Valentinian was murdered by Maximus too. His murderer took Eudoxia as his wife. And here the story begins, or at least, what ancient texts tell us:

    And as soon as day came, she sent to Carthage entreating Gizeric to avenge Valentinian […] and to deliver her […].And she impressed it upon Gizeric that, since he was a friend and ally and so great a calamity had befallen the imperial house, it was not a holy thing to fail to become an avenger. For from Byzantium she thought no vengeance would come, since Theodosius had already departed from the world and Marcian had taken over the empire.

    And Gizeric, for no other reason than that he suspected that much money would come to him, set sail for Italy with a great fleet.

    (Procopius Bella 3,4,38 – 3,5,1)

    The story of Eudocia calling for deliverance is repeated in a lot of texts such as Johannes Malalas, Priscus, or Hydatius. If it was a rumor or a lie or a propagandistic pretence, it was nevertheless a contemporary rumor, lie, or pretence, because there is a reference to this story as early as 456 (Sidonius Apollinaris carmina 5,61).
    As for Gaiseric, he certainly did not need money, he was affirmed ruler over the richest provinces of the west, and had a lot better reason to go: Should a new Imperial dynasty arise in Rome, Gaiseric’s position in Africa and his treaty itself were in severe danger.

    The Sack of Rome

    What the Vandals did was a very controlled show of force. Appearing, Maximus fled without attempting to fight and was killed. There was no fighting whatsoever, no slaughter, and no fire. Christian authors attributed this to the power of Pope Leo:

    Post hunc Maximi exitum, confestim secuta east multis dignas lacrymis Romana captivitas, et Urbem omni praesidio vacuum Gensericus [another form of the name Gaiseric] obtinuit, occurente sibi extra portas sancto Leone episcopo: cujus supplication ita eum, Deo agente, lenivit …
    (Prosper of Aquitaine, Chronicle; I don’t have an English translation at home, but Latin will do)


    Pope Leo seemed to have a habit of negotiating with invaders; it does not take much to see this story parallels the meeting of Leo and Attila a few years earlier:

    Therefore while Attila's spirit was wavering in doubt between going and not going, and he still lingered to ponder the matter, an embassy came to him from Rome to seek peace. Pope Leo himself came to meet him in the Ambuleian district of the Veneti at the well-travelled ford of the river Mincius. Then Attila quickly put aside his usual fury, turned back on the way he had advanced from beyond the Danube and departed with the promise of peace.
    (Jordanes Getica 223)

    As much as Attila had good military reason to turn back, Gaiseric had political reason not to slaughter. Remember he came as avenger of the just ruling dynasty and saviour of Eudoxia and her family. He had nothing to win and a lot to lose by senselessly killing and destroying.
    What he ordered was the opposite of ‘Vandalism’ – the Vandals plundered Rome, but did not destroy any cultural goods; they carefully loaded them on their ships and sailed home with the treasures. The extent of the plundering was massive, still felt long after it was done:

    Our predecessors did not deserve this favor of God, as they were not only not permitted to liberate Africa, but even saw Rome itself captured by the Vandals, and all the Imperial insignia taken from thence to Africa.
    (Codex Iustinianus 1,27)

    However all of the booty was still intact and not damaged, as Procopius proudly recounts their ‘return’ to Constantinople:

    And there was booty,—first of all, whatever articles are wont to be set apart for the royal service,—thrones of gold and carriages in which it is customary for a king's consort to ride, and much jewelry made of precious stones, and golden drinking cups, and all the other things which are useful for the royal table. And there was also silver weighing many thousands of talents and all the royal treasure amounting to an exceedingly great sum (for Gizeric had despoiled the Palatium in Rome, as has been said in the preceding narrative), and among these were the treasures of the Jews, which Titus, the son of Vespasian, together with certain others, had brought to Rome after the capture of Jerusalem.
    (Bella 4,9,4-5)

    The careful reader has noticed the ‘Roman’ treasures very well included the booty of earlier Roman conquests.

    The Aftermath

    While concentrating on the treasures and the money, people forget the large number of hostages taken by Gaiseric – in good Roman tradition, not in ‘barbarian’, just to be clear in this matter. Placidia, another daughter of Eudoxia was already betrothed to Anicius Olybrius, which Gaiseric honored.
    It was a political failure. In a long term he could not prevent a hostile Roman government coming to power, so the war between Rome and the Vandals had not ended with the sack of Rome, it had just begun.

    Called the fourth Punic War by Sidonius Apollinaris, major combat operations were conducted between 455 and 462. Taking Corsica and Sardinia, but unable to hold much of Sicily, the turning point was marked by a failed invasion of Africa attempted by Majorian.
    Well aware of his vulnerable position, Gaiseric concluded a new treaty with Leo, the Eastern Emperor, returning Eudoxia and Placidia. It did little to improve the relations with the WRE though. As Gaiseric’s favorite Olybrius was not appointed Emperor of the West but the candidate of Ricimer, his arch-rival in the recent years, Gaiseric intensified naval operations against Italy. The political favor of the east turned once more, and so both Emperors launched a joint amphibious operation against Gaiseric.
    The given number of 100.000 soldiers (Procopius Bella 3,6,1) is certainly inflated , but the scale of the Roman defeat in 468 was huge.

    Gaiseric died some ten years later, coming from almost nothing he secured his people a home in Africa. However he never really managed to secure a firm position within the Roman world by Roman style diplomacy. Roman court intrigues as well as his own ambitions stood in the way of Gaiseric’s long term goals. The sack of Rome is part of this failure; nevertheless the reputation the Vandals gained is not justified.
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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by FliegerAD View Post
    The Vandal sack of Rome is one of the most notorious events in history, by which the Vandals gained a lasting, but wrongful reputation.
    Based on how much they have looted from Rome, what precisely is the wrongful impression about their destruction?


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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Based on how much they have looted from Rome, what precisely is the wrongful impression about their destruction?
    That it was wild, haphazard undiscriminatory destruction. I mean, everybody knows barbarians are incapable of being even remotely civilised

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachus View Post
    That it was wild, haphazard undiscriminatory destruction. I mean, everybody knows barbarians are incapable of being even remotely civilised
    Alright, let's compare this to something like the Roman sack of Corinth. They took the Greek statues, carefully shipped them to Rome, and established an outpost of Classical civilization in Rome based on the Classical taste inspired and fostered by those statues. Furthermore, Corinth itself was shortly re-built, and flourished to new heights of prosperity under the Roman Empire.

    Now let's compare that to the Vandalic situation. Did they resettle Rome and make it an outpost of culture of civilization? What do you think happened to all those statues looted from Rome? Did Vandals' Carthage become the new Rome, a center for the arts? Or, as indeed was the case, did they melt everything from Rome into cheap metals, because they had no taste and cared little for high arts? How can you look slightly on the situation?


    Quote Originally Posted by Младший капрал Джонс View Post
    You obviously know nothing at all about the archaeology of the city of Rome. Rome wasn't "destroyed," it was inhabited continuously and has been ever since Roman times. Do read up before you spew nonsense.
    Rome wasn't destroyed?

    I'll let all of the Italian posters tear this one to bits.

    Read some scholarly literature instead of bickering on online forums. For example, read "Tribune of Rome" by Iris Origo (1938). It is a scholarly monograph that details the biography of an Italian Cola Di Rienzi in 14th century Italy, who rose to dictatorship of Rome by battling the impoverished gangs which fought for the charred corpse of the city.

    As part of the discussion the book goes into great detail about the state of Rome at that time, and describes at length the devastation which an observer in 1320s would've beheld if he visited the city. Most of the buildings were outright destroyed. The city was filled with swamps which spread plague, and whatever pieces of buildings were left were overgrown with trees. The population of the city hovered around 10,000 people (After Totila's sack, there were no humans left in the city). Among those pitiful 10,000 inhabitants of Rome, many were split off into gangs, some living on the Palatine, some living on the Esquiline, battling for street control under the shadow of ruins and destroyed ancient monuments.

    The devastation inflicted on Rome by barbarians is part of why the early Renaissance Italians hated barbarians with a passion. They saw the devastation better than you and I can, and because of all the destruction, contributed to posterity the characterization thereof as unwashed, unrestrained, brutes.

    They, I think, knew more about Rome of their day than your pompous and pretentious post pretends to be.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; April 23, 2010 at 03:54 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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  5. #5

    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Rome wasn't destroyed?

    I'll let all of the Italian posters tear this one to bits.
    I'm afraid it is your rubbish that will be torn to bits by the Italian posters, Siggy.

    Read some scholarly literature instead of bickering on online forums. For example, read "Tribune of Rome" by Iris Origo (1938). It is a scholarly monograph that details the biography of an Italian Cola Di Rienzi in 14th century Italy, who rose to dictatorship of Rome by battling the impoverished gangs which fought for the charred corpse of the city.

    As part of the discussion the book goes into great detail about the state of Rome at that time, and describes at length the devastation which an observer in 1320s would've beheld if he visited the city. Most of the buildings were outright destroyed. The city was filled with swamps which spread plague, and whatever pieces of buildings were left were overgrown with trees. The population of the city hovered around 10,000 people (After Totila's sack, there were no humans left in the city). Among those pitiful 10,000 inhabitants of Rome, many were split off into gangs, some living on the Palatine, some living on the Esquiline, battling for street control under the shadow of ruins and destroyed ancient monuments.
    It's faulty reasoning like this that makes your posts so hilarious, Siggy. Face it, you've just skipped an entire millenium and the events therein and are attributing the situation of 14th century Rome to Totila's sack? The entire point is a huge non-sequitur. How can you read your own posts without laughing? (Not to mention that we weren't even talking about Totila, but whatever...)

    The devastation inflicted on Rome by barbarians is part of why the early Renaissance Italians hated barbarians with a passion. They saw the devastation better than you and I can, and because of all the destruction, contributed to posterity the characterization thereof as unwashed, unrestrained, brutes.
    Renaissance Italians knew as much about the "devastation of Rome" as you know about Iron Age Britain. You're ignoring an entire millenium and acting as if it were yesterday.

    They, I think, knew more about Rome of their day than your pompous and pretentious post pretends to be.
    You're failing to address the fact that to directly correlate the situation of Renaissance Rome to the sack of Rome is ridiculous. The fact that they knew about the Rome of their day does not mean that they knew how it got there. Did they study the archaeological strata? Did they study the periods in which buildings were erected, abandoned, built upon, &c.? Did they magically know how things were 1000 years ago and how it all magically became the city they were living in? Do their skewed beliefs hold more gravitas than the studies of modern archaeology?

    The reasoning in your post is just a huge, long-wound logical fallacy. During that millenium Rome changed hands dozens of times, it was pillaged by Normans, by Saracens, by Goths, it was invaded by the Byzantines, it became the battleground between the HRE and the Papal States... and you're just saying that an event that happened 1000 years before all that has had more weight in configuring Rome's state in the 14th century?
    Last edited by Viking Prince; April 24, 2010 at 03:56 PM. Reason: not needed for discussion

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Alright, let's compare this to something like the Roman sack of Corinth. .
    ( Or Carthage...)
    Cicerus´s view? Vitruvius refers the destruction of the theatre at Corinth.
    Pausanias refers the massacring of men and the selling into slavery of women/children.

    ...Corinth itself was shortly re-built, and flourished to new heights of prosperity under the Roman Empire
    That´s correct....102 years after the destruction. As Williams wrote. " For 102 years Corinth remained a ruin, probably with squatters, but without a political life..:"

    During that millenium Rome changed hands dozens of times, it was pillaged by Normans, by Saracens, by Goths, it was invaded by the Byzantines, it became the battleground between the HRE and the Papal States... and you're just saying that an event that happened 1000 years before all that has had more weight in configuring Rome's state in the 14th century?
    ...But we can´t deny this.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 23, 2010 at 07:18 PM.

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post

    Read some scholarly literature instead of bickering on online forums. For example, read "Tribune of Rome" by Iris Origo (1938). It is a scholarly monograph that details the biography of an Italian Cola Di Rienzi in 14th century Italy, who rose to dictatorship of Rome by battling the impoverished gangs which fought for the charred corpse of the city.

    As part of the discussion the book goes into great detail about the state of Rome at that time, and describes at length the devastation which an observer in 1320s would've beheld if he visited the city. Most of the buildings were outright destroyed. The city was filled with swamps which spread plague, and whatever pieces of buildings were left were overgrown with trees. The population of the city hovered around 10,000 people (After Totila's sack, there were no humans left in the city). Among those pitiful 10,000 inhabitants of Rome, many were split off into gangs, some living on the Palatine, some living on the Esquiline, battling for street control under the shadow of ruins and destroyed ancient monuments.
    .

    20,000 according to census

    350 b.C. 30.000
    250 b.C. 150.000
    44 b.C. 1.000.000
    120 1.650.000
    330 600.000
    410 200.000
    530 50.000
    650 20.000
    1000 20.000
    1400 20.000
    1526 50.000-60.000
    1528 20.000
    1600 100.000
    1750 156.000
    1800 163.000
    1820 139.900
    1850 175.000
    1853 175.800
    1858 182.600
    1861 194.500
    1871 212.432
    1881 273.952
    1901 422.411
    1911 518.917
    1921 660.235
    1931 930.926
    1936 1.150.589
    1951 1.651.754
    1961 2.188.160
    1971 2.781.993
    1981 2.840.259
    1991 2.775.250
    2001 2.546.804
    2007 2.705.603

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by davide.cool View Post
    20,000 according to census

    350 b.C. 30.000
    250 b.C. 150.000
    44 b.C. 1.000.000
    120 1.650.000
    330 600.000
    410 200.000
    530 50.000
    650 20.000
    1000 20.000
    1400 20.000
    Ok that's quite telling, then!

    So let's parse those numbers carefully: The abysmal figure of 20,000 is more pathetic than any other argument I could make for that date. But what's also interesting is that the 200,000 figure, a colossal collapse from 1.6 million under Hadrian, is a snapshot of Rome right after Alaric. We have 600,000 after the tumultuous Civil Wars, and an abysmal 200,000 after Alaric. Then our friend Geiseric comes along, and it falls under 50,000.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; April 24, 2010 at 08:59 AM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post

    Now let's compare that to the Vandalic situation. Did they resettle Rome and make it an outpost of culture of civilization? What do you think happened to all those statues looted from Rome? Did Vandals' Carthage become the new Rome, a center for the arts? Or, as indeed was the case, did they melt everything from Rome into cheap metals, because they had no taste and cared little for high arts?
    I'd like a source supporting the last sentence (to be precise, the melting of the Roman loot), since it's in almost complete contradiction to what the book I have in front of me says (Jerzy Strzelczyk Wandalowie i ich afrykańskie państwo [The Vandals and their African State] )
    Last edited by Visitor13; April 24, 2010 at 09:29 AM.
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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Visitor13 View Post
    I'd like a source supporting the last sentence (to be precise, the melting of the Roman loot), since it's in almost complete contradiction to what the book I have in front of me says (Jerzy Strzelczyk Wandalowie i ich afrykańskie państwo [The Vandals and their African State] )
    We don't have sources either way. What we do know is that after the Vandals take the Roman art pieces to Carthage, they disappear from history.

    It is highly significant to add that archeologists have done an incredible amount of work on Carthage, and they have not found thousands of statues in the post-Roman stratum. The statues simply disappear from all history. The only Carthage statues that I'm aware of in large numbers are the many hundreds which were sculpted during the Roman period. Once Romans lose Carthage, it becomes a home to people basically indifferent to statuary and high arts.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; April 24, 2010 at 11:21 AM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Alright, let's compare this to something like the Roman sack of Corinth. They took the Greek statues, carefully shipped them to Rome, and established an outpost of Classical civilization in Rome based on the Classical taste inspired and fostered by those statues. Furthermore, Corinth itself was shortly re-built, and flourished to new heights of prosperity under the Roman Empire.

    Now let's compare that to the Vandalic situation. Did they resettle Rome and make it an outpost of culture of civilization? What do you think happened to all those statues looted from Rome? Did Vandals' Carthage become the new Rome, a center for the arts? Or, as indeed was the case, did they melt everything from Rome into cheap metals, because they had no taste and cared little for high arts? How can you look slightly on the situation?
    If by barbarism you mean murder as entertainment, genocide e.g Dacia/Gaul/Carthage (Carthage was wiped off the map in a Texas - Chainsaw - like orgy of blood and guts) A far superior culture ruined ... the imposition of corrupt, burdensome taxation the end of arts and education (yes what REALLY happened to Greek and others' scientific progress I wonder....????) total lack of equality and social mobility then I think you'll find the real villains here are obvious. What? no evidence of the destruction of Rome by "barbarians" ? ....true my friend... these "beasts" were Christian and not nearly as intolerant as the new Elite Roman Catholic cult. As for the Vandals ... Roman Africa was falling apart ... the rich had moved out of the towns and they were already decaying. The vandals actually did the inhabitants a favour by taking away the tax burden, ending the religious persecutions at the time and stopping the "barbaric" games. Lets not forget by the way when Gaiseric sacked Rome he was only taking the booty the Romans had stolen from Jerusalem in the first place .... and not nearly so peacefully....
    Last edited by Darth Red; October 24, 2010 at 01:09 PM. Reason: insulting flame

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachus View Post
    That it was wild, haphazard undiscriminatory destruction. I mean, everybody knows barbarians are incapable of being even remotely civilised
    What's "civilized" about the systematic destruction of a city?

    War isn't "civilized" in any fashion.
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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    What's "civilized" about the systematic destruction of a city?

    War isn't "civilized" in any fashion.
    A controlled looting of a city's treasures counts as "destruction"?

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachus View Post
    A controlled looting of a city's treasures counts as "destruction"?
    Yes.

    Why do you keep saying "controlled"? Why is that important to you?
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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Reading the OP it seams that there was no mindless destruction, no vandalism (like there was in Constantinople in 1204 for example).
    It was more like Napoleon hoarding up everything of value and shipping it to Paris during his Italian campaign.

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    ...so did you somehow miss the nearly thousand-year temporal gulf and just plain assume nothing happened in Italy (and Rome) inbetween ? I mean, even the freakin' Sicilian Normans once took a shot at pillaging the Eternal City during that Investiture Controversy mess...
    It's not even funny how much else (like the minor side effects of being the center of the Catholic Church) you're just plain handwaving here.

    Tune in tomorrow - same Siggy channel, same Siggy BS!

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    ...so did you somehow miss the nearly thousand-year temporal gulf and just plain assume nothing happened in Italy (and Rome) inbetween ? I mean, even the freakin' Sicilian Normans once took a shot at pillaging the Eternal City during that Investiture Controversy mess...
    Stone buildings, unlike wooden, don't have a tendency to just fall apart on their own, I'm sorry to break it to all of you. For example the Pharos of Alexandria stood for a thousand years, until an extraneous measure like an earthquake brought it down, and I'm not aware of any major earthquakes hitting Rome. So all those buildings had to have been destroyed somehow, and you all have to explain how. You also have to explain why the city of 1 million people became a city of 10,000 living amidst a plague-ridden, diseased city which became overgrown and abandoned. There is no record in antiquity of a humongous city like that becoming nigh-uninhabited and abandoned through things like emigration.

    I am also prepared for the "reuse of lime and marble" excuse, but there were no major construction projects until the 15th century, when the Pope returned to Rome. Thus you have to explain the destruction of a vast city without any excuses such as these.

    It's not even funny how much else (like the minor side effects of being the center of the Catholic Church) you're just plain handwaving here.
    It being an important center for the Church would make it even less reason for it to be abandoned and all of its buildings destroyed. In fact there were thousands of pilgrims arriving yearly, and there was no reason why it should ever have been abandoned and dilapidated as it was.


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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    The reason why the city of rome was sacked was because Valentinian killed Aetius, and the retaliation that killed Valentinian III ended the treaty with the vandals.

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Magistri Militum FlaviusAetius View Post
    The reason why the city of rome was sacked was because Valentinian killed Aetius, and the retaliation that killed Valentinian III ended the treaty with the vandals.
    Vandals were bent on sacking Rome anyway, the murder of Valentinian the Third was just an excuse.

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    Default Re: The Vandal Sack of Rome

    SignifierOne wrote:

    Here is Velleius Paterculus on the sack of Corinth:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I.13

    Mummius, after the capture of Corinth, when he was contracting for the transportation to Italy of pictures and statues by the hands of the greatest artists, gave strict instructions that the contractors should be warned that if they lost them, they would have to replace them by new ones.





    Yeah, it would have been much more difficult than replacing the inhabitants of Corinth was...

    Ooops, sorry, I just remembered that for quite some time there was no Corinth to have its inhabitants replaced...
    Last edited by Visitor13; April 30, 2010 at 05:27 AM. Reason: style, style, style...
    A big THANKS to all Total War modders

    Visitor13 came to TWC for the wafers

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