View Poll Results: Is Eurabia inevitable?

Voters
66. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    8 12.12%
  • no

    52 78.79%
  • unsure

    6 9.09%
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 119

Thread: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    An interesting article from Foreign Policy magazine focusing on the Eurabian myth, I think it is pathetic that authors still cling on it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Eurabian Follies

    The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    BY JUSTIN VAÏSSE | JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2010



    By 2050, Europe will be unrecognizable. Instead of romantic cafes, Paris's Boulevard Saint-Germain will be lined with halal butcheries and hookah bars; the street signs in Berlin will be written in Turkish. School-children from Oslo to Naples will read Quranic verses in class, and women will be veiled.

    COMMENTS (42) SHARE:
    Twitter
    Reddit
    Buzz

    More...

    At least, that's what the authors of the strange new genre of "Eurabia" literature want you to believe. Not all books of this alarmist Europe-is-dying category, which received its most intellectually hefty treatment yet with the recent release of Christopher Caldwell's Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, offer such dire and colorful predictions. But they all make the case that low fertility rates among natives, massive immigration from Muslim countries, and the fateful encounter between an assertive Islamic culture and a self-effacing European one will lead to a Europe devoid of all Western identity.
    Despite their Europe-focused content, these books are a largely North American phenomenon. Bat Ye'or (or Gisèle Littman), an Egyptian-born British author, wrote one of the first of the genre in 2005, with Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, which argued that political subservience to a Muslim agenda was turning Europe into an appendage of the Arab world. But most of her recent followers, including Caldwell, the jocular and hyperbolic Mark Steyn, the shallow Bruce Thornton, the more serious Walter Laqueur, and the high-pitched Claire Berlinski and Bruce Bawer, write from the other side of the Atlantic.
    It's not that Europeans don't produce books in the same vein. Consider Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci's The Rage and the Pride, a rabid attack on Muslim immigrants, or British columnist Melanie Phillips's Londonistan, castigating the British left for handing over the country to the Muslim Brotherhood. Still, there is no real European version of the Eurabia panic, and the books that do exist tend to be country-specific, and part of a fringe far right. They do not dominate the market, while works by a range of serious scholars, including Italian sociologist Stefano Allievi's work on European Muslims, German cultural anthropologist Werner Schiffauer's studies of political Islam among Turkish immigrants, British sociologist Tariq Modood's Multicultural Politics, and French political scientist Olivier Roy's Globalized Islam, have offered important, data-driven analyses that undermine the facile dichotomies of the Eurabia myth.
    But in the United States, the Eurabia books continue to proliferate even today, close to a decade after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, which triggered the genre. Part of the explanation lies in the post-9/11 narrative of America besieged by militant Islam -- a clash of civilizations in which Europe is the front line, threatened by internal subversion. "If Europe is unable to assimilate its immigrants, if Europe is a breeding ground for anti-Americanism and Islamic radicalism -- and it is -- this is our problem," Berlinski warns in Menace in Europe (2006). "The threat of the radical Islamists taking over Europe is every bit as great to the United States as was the threat of the Nazis taking over Europe in the 1940s," Tony Blankley writes in The West's Last Chance (2005). "We cannot afford to lose Europe."



    In this sense, many of these books offer a variation on the conservative Cold War vision of Europe as vulnerable to the spread of communism -- only now, Muslims have replaced Soviets and Euro-communists as the enemies. The continuity in clichés with the Europhobic literature of the 1970s and 1980s is striking: In both periods Europe is described with terms like appeasing, impotent, asexual, feminine, post-nationalistic, irreligious, apologetic, self-loathing, naive, decadent, and so forth.
    Clichés are not the only reason why the foundations of the Eurabia literature are shaky. By relying chiefly on anecdotes rather than data, these books misrepresent the complex evolving picture of Islam in Europe. They also eliminate social and economic conditions, including discrimination, from the picture. "There is considerably more phobia vis-à-vis Westerners and things Western than Islamophobia," Laqueur opines in The Last Days of Europe (2007). Leaving out poverty and racism (which, pace Laqueur, is a daily problem for Europe's nonwhites, Muslim or not), the Eurabia writers overemphasize culture and religion in explaining tensions and lay the blame solely on Muslims.
    After the 2005 riots in French banlieues, for example, independent studies pointed to the same factors: police violence, discrimination, unemployment, and a large youth population in the housing projects where the trouble erupted. But the Eurabia authors weren't impressed. Immigrants don't have much to complain about, they claim, so the riots were all about jihad, or, as Caldwell suggests in his recent book, "the Arab cause." "Even if they did not believe in Islam, they believed in Team Islam," he writes.
    This is not, of course, to suggest that things are going well. The bleak vignettes and shocking tales about social tensions and violence linked to Islamism, like the killing of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, are indeed part of the picture. But the paradox of this genre is that it dwells on the heated controversies and tensions taking place in Europe while at the same time claiming that Europeans are in denial of their problems. And the emphasis on the anecdotal tends to obscure the fact that, from the fight over minarets in Switzerland to the debate over headscarves in France, current tensions are part of a normal and democratic process of adjustment, not the first signs of an impending catastrophe.
    Beyond all the sloppy anecdotal evidence, the Eurabia literature relies on two major false assumptions. The first is demographic. The literature holds that Europe will be Islamic at the end of the century "at the very latest," with Muslim majorities in some European countries "in the foreseeable future," in the words of Bernard Lewis in his 2007 pamphlet, "Europe and Islam." That's because "native populations are aging and fading and being supplanted remorselessly by a young Muslim demographic," Steyn explains in America Alone (2006). "Europe will be semi-Islamic in its politico-cultural character within a generation."
    If these books insist so much on the future, it is because current figures are unimpressive. According to the higher range of estimates by the U.S. National Intelligence Council (NIC), there are already as many as 18 million Muslims in Western Europe, or 4.5 percent of the population. The percentage is even lower for the 27-country European Union as a whole. The future will certainly see an increase, but it's hard to imagine that Europe will even reach the 10 percent mark (except in some countries or cities). For one thing, as the same NIC study indicates and demographers agree, fertility rates among Muslims are sharply declining as children of immigrants gradually conform to prevailing social and economic norms. Nor is immigration still a major source of newly minted European Muslims. Only about 500,000 people a year come legally to Europe from Muslim-majority countries, with an even smaller number coming illegally -- meaning that the annual influx is a fraction of a percent of the European population.



    Finally, though the Eurabia books describe Europe as committing "slow motion suicide" (Thornton in Decline and Fall), reality begs to differ -- and increasingly so. According to demographers, in 2008, fertility rates in France and Ireland were more than two children per woman, close to the U.S. (and replacement) level; in Britain and Sweden they were above 1.9. And though in the 1990s European countries set an all-time record for low fertility rates, figures are now rising in all EU states except Germany.
    But isn't the uptick due to Muslims? Although migrant women, some of them Muslim, have a negligible impact on overall fertility rates, adding a maximum of 0.1 to any country's average, they contribute substantially to the total number of births, typically 10 to 20 percent in high immigration countries. That is the origin of Mark Steyn's overblown claim that Mohammed is "the most popular baby boy's name in much of the Western world." But it doesn't mean Europe will end up Islamicized.
    Caldwell makes a point of highlighting the second and most crucial false assumption of this literature. The British cover of his book asks, "Can Europe be the same with different people in it?" For most of these authors, Muslims are "different people," and Muslim identity is incompatible with anything else -- an assumption they share with Islamists.
    But to large majorities of Europe's Muslims, Islam is neither an exclusive identity nor a marching order. Recent poll data from Gallup show that most European Muslims happily combine their national and religious identities, and a 2009 Harvard University working paper by Ronald Inglehart and Pippa Norris demonstrates that in the long term, the basic cultural values of Muslim migrants evolve to conform to the predominant culture of the European society in which they live.
    More generally, average European Muslims worry first and foremost about bread-and-butter issues, and to the extent that they are religious, they want to be able to practice religion freely and in decent conditions, not to impose the caliphate. As a 2006 pan-European Pew Research Center study makes clear, "Muslims in Europe worry about their future, but their concern is more economic than religious or cultural," and though there are tensions, these are mostly due to racism, not some grandiose clash of cultures.
    The most likely scenario for the next few decades -- increasing integration of Muslims accompanied by continued cultural tensions, occasional terrorist bombings, and differentiated outcomes in various countries -- is a conceptual impossibility for most Eurabia authors because for them Muslims can't really become Europeans. It is, however, already the reality. Maybe it is time they take notice.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...rabian_follies
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  2. #2
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,493

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    I don't really see why so many people think that Islamic culture is automatically stronger and more powerful than Western culture (which is a bit of an oxymoron because obviously French culture is different to German culture but for the sake of ease I will just use the term "Western"). As residents of Western countries, we are constantly bombarded with what is presumably Western culture, from TV programmes, to adverts, to films. Mass media was invented and is exploited the most in the West. Any immigrant coming to a Western country, even if they only watch an hour of television a day, will still find themselves being influenced by Western culture. All of these institutions for influence are already set up and are long established; for an immigrant to start changing a country, s/he sometimes has to start right at the bottom, as the people who built the first Sikh temples, or Mosques, or Mandirs in Britain. Whilst these buildings may be little enclaves hidden away from Western culture, a person cannot live within them forever and even a short foray outside their walls will mean that the bombardment begins anew.

    For these reasons I believe that a country's native culture will change an immigrant much more easily than an immigrant will change his or her adopted culture.

    Just a hint for those who don't realise: my vote isn't actually serious; I'm simply showing my contempt for such a non-problem.
    Last edited by Jom; April 23, 2010 at 07:44 AM.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  3. #3
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kokhav Ya'ir, Israel / Jewhannesburg
    Posts
    9,043

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    I don't really see why so many people think that Islamic culture is automatically stronger and more powerful than Western culture (which is a bit of an oxymoron because obviously French culture is different to German culture but for the sake of ease I will just use the term "Western")
    How is it an oxymoron?
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  4. #4
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,493

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I would like the 7 who voted yes try to explain to us why thy think that British Muslims have 19 kids apiece or Dutch Muslims 24 as their Eurabia mythology suggests.
    Sorry Mongrel, I voted "yes" ironically because Babur kept pestering me to vote and post in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    How is it an oxymoron?
    Because of the reason I just explained. For the definition of "culture" which I'm using here which is food, habits, beliefs (not just religious), architecture, etc. it's foolish to say that the West is homogeneous in its culture when the West in Europe is made up of at least 7 or 8 vastly culturally different countries.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  5. #5
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    Sorry Mongrel, I voted "yes" ironically because Babur kept pestering me to vote and post in this thread.
    lol I only asked you to post not to vote "yes"
    Last edited by Babur; April 24, 2010 at 05:45 AM.
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  6. #6
    Koelkastmagneet's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
    Posts
    2,922

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Anyone with half a brain could've guessed that the whole Eurabia is a myth, seriously, the only ones actually ignorant enough to believe it are the BNP crowd and the more idiotic amongst Wilder's followers, hell, simple reasoning already defeats it without bringing in any statistics.

    Do all Muslims think alike like a hive-mind bent on destroying Christian or Western identity? (if such a thing even consists these days) This seems to be the general reasoning among our xenophobic buddies.
    Does immigrating into another society have any effect at all on the average Muslim? The effects may be limited at first, but second and third generation immigrants are much, much different from the first, have fewer children and integrate better socially.

    It's propaganda like this

    and this:

    That gets these idiots going.

    They even claim that "historical" research told them that a birth rate of 1.38 is "impossible to reverse".

    I find it a bit odd that they could find that from historical research because there's absolutely no records of a society getting that low a birth rate and no example of a society dieing out out of a low birth rate.

    They even dare to claim that the average French Muslim family has 8.1 children.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    It's simple math. The birth rate of Arabs/Muslim groups is much, much higher than birth rate of normal European couples. As the Muslim immigration increases, the more this birth rate has significance, for population growth of the Muslim immigrants will be higher. It cannot be allowed for Europe to turn into a second middle east. And while people shun this problem today and label as tackling this issue as "racist", they do not understand the implications for the future. What I would recommend would be 1) having consistent quota system from Middle East countries and 2) limit the number of children a couple can have (a drastic but overall necessary measure)
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  8. #8
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It's simple math. The birth rate of Arabs/Muslim groups is much, much higher than birth rate of normal European couples. As the Muslim immigration increases, the more this birth rate has significance, for population growth of the Muslim immigrants will be higher. It cannot be allowed for Europe to turn into a second middle east. And while people shun this problem today and label as tackling this issue as "racist", they do not understand the implications for the future. What I would recommend would be 1) having consistent quota system from Middle East countries and 2) limit the number of children a couple can have (a drastic but overall necessary measure)
    you didn't read the article? fertility rates are dropping amongst immigrants.I don't know any "Middle Eastern" families who have more than two kids so I don't know what you're going on about.

    I didn't know that literacy is still such a privilege.
    Last edited by Babur; April 23, 2010 at 08:58 AM.
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    you didn't read the article? fertility rates are dropping amongst immigrants.I don't know any "Middle Eastern" families who have more than two kids so I don't know what you're going on about.

    I didn't know that literacy is still such a privilege.
    I highly doubt that the birth rate of Muslim immigrants is at par with those of native European couples. If that statistic is implying this, then there is something wrong with that statistic. Culturally Muslim families are bigger and this is not counting the fact that men sometimes have multiple wives.
    [ Under Patronage of Jom ]
    [ "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21 ]

  10. #10

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    I highly doubt that the birth rate of Muslim immigrants is at par with those of native European couples. If that statistic is implying this, then there is something wrong with that statistic. Culturally Muslim families are bigger and this is not counting the fact that men sometimes have multiple wives.
    They are bigger, but not a 8:1 standard. I think the average is around the 3 children. One has to take into account assimilation which happens over time, it's doubtful that birth rates will remain on the same level as European Muslims become more detached from their original culture and get higher wealth.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  11. #11
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    I highly doubt that the birth rate of Muslim immigrants is at par with those of native European couples. If that statistic is implying this, then there is something wrong with that statistic. Culturally Muslim families are bigger and this is not counting the fact that men sometimes have multiple wives.
    again though, polygamy is illegal in Europe

    why do you deny statistics showing that Muslims are no less prolific at having children than Europeans?

    or will only sources by Mark Steyn or Robert Spencer suffice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    They are bigger, but not a 8:1 standard. I think the average is around the 3 children. One has to take into account assimilation which happens over time, it's doubtful that birth rates will remain on the same level as European Muslims become more detached from their original culture and get higher wealth.

    the decline in fertility rates is also affecting Muslims too, so I am doubt it will remain like this forever
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It's simple math. The birth rate of Arabs/Muslim groups is much, much higher than birth rate of normal European couples. As the Muslim immigration increases, the more this birth rate has significance, for population growth of the Muslim immigrants will be higher. It cannot be allowed for Europe to turn into a second middle east. And while people shun this problem today and label as tackling this issue as "racist", they do not understand the implications for the future. What I would recommend would be 1) having consistent quota system from Middle East countries and 2) limit the number of children a couple can have (a drastic but overall necessary measure)
    Europe is not the Soviet Union, Lord Mov. Perhaps you forget that the values of Western Europe are not the values of Armenia.

  13. #13
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khalid View Post
    Europe is not the Soviet Union, Lord Mov. Perhaps you forget that the values of Western Europe are not the values of Armenia.
    but aren't Armenian values foreign to Western Europe too?
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    but aren't Armenian values foreign to Western Europe too?
    That's my point. Armenia is not apart of the West, it does not have Western values then any more then Morocco.

  15. #15
    Koelkastmagneet's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
    Posts
    2,922

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It's simple math. The birth rate of Arabs/Muslim groups is much, much higher than birth rate of normal European couples. As the Muslim immigration increases, the more this birth rate has significance, for population growth of the Muslim immigrants will be higher. It cannot be allowed for Europe to turn into a second middle east. And while people shun this problem today and label as tackling this issue as "racist", they do not understand the implications for the future. What I would recommend would be 1) having consistent quota system from Middle East countries and 2) limit the number of children a couple can have (a drastic but overall necessary measure)
    The birth rate of Muslims famillies isn't that freakin' high and dropping anyways.

  16. #16
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    I forgot to add about current R. of Armenia that Russian/Soviet period transformed even more this country into a European type society that contrasts with her immediate neighbour Iran for example, but with Eastern Turkey too. Coming from Eastern Turkey or Iran to Armenia you probably realise you crossed into Europe.

    really? when I was in Russia I didn't feel like I was completely in Europe nor in Asia it was kinda in-between and the alphabet was a nightmare to get used to

    Quote Originally Posted by That Dutch guy View Post
    The birth rate of Muslims famillies isn't that freakin' high and dropping anyways.
    Indeed, but he needs to promote this myth to justify his views
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    really? when I was in Russia I didn't feel like I was completely in Europe nor in Asia it was kinda in-between and the alphabet was a nightmare to get used to
    Because your perception of Europe is based on Western European culture and society, but Europe is more diverse then that.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    It kinda reminds me of the plethora of ''invasion'' literature that emerged in Britain in the years leading up to WWI, nearly all hysterical nonsense featuring ridiculous supposed invasion plans of the Germans and their heinous future attempts to exterminate non-Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  19. #19
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Deventer, The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,057

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Oh noes, I accidentally voted for the wrong option.

    Anyway, I don't really know. However I do believe that (western) Europe is wealthy and industrialized and as long countries near Europe (including Eastern Europe) are poor migration from poorer countries to (Western) Europe will continue... Since most of these countries are Islamic countries it's an assumption you could make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    They are bigger, but not a 8:1 standard. I think the average is around the 3 children. One has to take into account assimilation which happens over time, it's doubtful that birth rates will remain on the same level as European Muslims become more detached from their original culture and get higher wealth.
    Most probably yes, but there's still this thing called migration (both emigration and immigration).
    Last edited by Razor; April 23, 2010 at 10:01 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Eurabian Follies: The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
    Most probably yes, but there's still this thing called migration (both emigration and immigration).
    Immigration from Muslim countries only constitutes, like, a quarter of total immigration in most European countries. The bulk are Europeans. Emigration is tiny as well, and is only going to decrease. Many of those that emigrate are probably remigrating immigrants as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •