Duchy of Norman Sicily

[Damocles]

Just out of curiousity...Why is the Duchy of Norman Sicily still around in the 1220 era campaign? It had passed to the HRE by this time. It was in the hands of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, and having the HRE both north and south of the papal states was a major reason that the Pope declared a crusade on them.

It was taken over by the French Angevins, (the brother of the French Roi) by 1260ish, and then by 1282, it was taken by the Aragonese.

There was no independent Kingdom of Sicily.

[Ichon]

I agree... should be some strong rebels in my view with perhaps HRE holding Palmero or Naples only 1 of them- HRE did not have a strong hold over the entire S Italian peninsula and the Sicilians hated the French so much the Argonese had it relatively easy compared to HRE. Hopefully with the next SS the different era campaigns show more variety of factions.

[Damocles]

In fact, for what it is worth, the Duchy of Norman Sicily completely ceased to exist in 1197, when it's last ruler died without a heir, and it passed to the HRE prince that had married his sibling. It was completely swept away. His son would be Frederick 'stupor mundi', who would become one of the greatest Holy Roman Emperors, while considering Sicily his home.

[Ichon]

In fact, for what it is worth, the Duchy of Norman Sicily completely ceased to exist in 1197, when it's last ruler died without a heir, and it passed to the HRE prince that had married his sibling. It was completely swept away. His son would be Frederick 'stupor mundi', who would become one of the greatest Holy Roman Emperors, while considering Sicily his home.

Sicily was more firmly under control of HRE than the mainland southern italian peninsula is my only point. If the next SS modifies the 1220 campaign HRE shouldn't get the entire current Sicilian kingdom.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Practical reasons Not enough nation slots and in Stainless steel we make our own history!

[Kawee]

Practical reasons Not enough nation slots and in Stainless steel we make our own history!

Even then, the mod takes a lotof pride in getting the context right before letting us ruin history by conquering the world with Ireland

So yes, anythign that can be done to improve historical accuracties should be done. Having said that, this should be about number 238 on the priority list of things to do for SS.

[Ichon]

I'd put it higher than that... reworking the factions a bit should be in the top 3 for a new version. The 1450 campaign is a good idea and could almost work with current setup if only the K-Shah, Cumans and Mongols were renamed/reworked a bit to the different Hordes and Sicily, CS, Scotland were removed and some new factions added. There are many to choose from... Mid-east or central Europe the best places to add something.

I think most of the work for current SS was done based on early era campaign which does look the best historically. After that though... would be cool to see each campaign have a couple new factions.

[Concrete]

Scotland,removed

OVER MY DEAD BODY

[Gogolometro]

And teutons in 1450. Same Jerusalim.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Anything you could do to improve gameplay should be done influenced by history besides using the tools that medieval 2 provides its impossible to make a completely accurate historical mod.but im sure its possible to make an alliance between Sicilly and HRE for late campaign?

[JorisofHolland]

Sorry to spoil the fun of making new factions, but every new faction will have to replace an excisting one. Doesn't matter if it's only used in one campaign, it can't be done otherwise.

[Tears of Destiny]

Woah Woah Woah Leave the Teutons in! If you have to remove factions, for all that is Ritterbruder leave the teutons in!

[Massive_attack]

You guys do realize that without the TO the "east" becomes alot more boring, right ? Granted, if your playing as, say, france, chances are you wont see the TO last very long, but for a faction like lithuania, poland, and novgorod, the TO presents a neat strategic opportunity.

In addition i think we are kind of bending history here for the sake of getting a faction that we feel we need into the mod. Come on, i mean, Total War has never EVER been a historical simulation of events. In total war, the players forge new histories from set points, literally everything after the player creates a new campaign is a-historical, and in many cases the scenario was a-historical to begin with. Stainless steel is not a history textbook, its a fun game made on the basis of "know what would be cool ? If you as the player could make X,Y, and Z happen as _______ (insert faction here). In total war, we don't care that in 3 years after the late campaign starts the byzantine empire is supposed to have fallen. What if we want to see the byzantine empire dominate the entire world ? What if we want to see the teutonic order violently conquer all of Russia for mother-church ? Total war is and never has been "about history" its only been "set in a historical context", which is a loose description at best. It might be Stainless Steel's mission to increase historical realism in the game however, I am certain that SS does not intend to ruin what makes total war games so fun- messing around in a timeline, and doing whatever you please.

The order is also one of the most unique and best looking factions in the mod, hands down, that at least i think you'll have a hard time arguing, the only side that comes close to how good they look would probably the mongols in RR/RC, or the byzantines of CBUR if your into that faction.

In addition, lets not forget the role the TO has in the mod: the order is one of those "hard" factions, which start out incredibly small and are surrounded by potential threats. Its really so much fun trying to make the order survive beyond its time.

Also, you people seem obsessed with removing factions, but in favor of.... what, exactly ? The two most wanted factions in the strata of this mod appear to be: Bulgaria, and Armenia. I get why people might want Armenia, but why take out the TO to make that happen ? No really, these great new factions people dream of are nice concepts but in practice i think what you'll find is that they probably wont make up for the fun the others gave players. The teutonic order is one of the most loved factions in this mod, that is a fact and without an exceptional reason to remove them (read: there doesnt seem to be one) i would be inclined to disagree with some of the sentiment in this thread.

The KOJ should stay in for the same reason (though, perhaps renamed to be the "crusader states" and be merged with the templars faction).

[bkoguy07]

You guys do realize that without the TO the "east" becomes alot more boring, right ? Granted, if your playing as, say, france, chances are you wont see the TO last very long, but for a faction like lithuania, poland, and novgorod, the TO presents a neat strategic opportunity.

In addition i think we are kind of bending history here for the sake of getting a faction that we feel we need into the mod. Come on, i mean, Total War has never EVER been a historical simulation of events. In total war, the players forge new histories from set points, literally everything after the player creates a new campaign is a-historical, and in many cases the scenario was a-historical to begin with. Stainless steel is not a history textbook, its a fun game made on the basis of "know what would be cool ? If you as the player could make X,Y, and Z happen as _______ (insert faction here). In total war, we don't care that in 3 years after the late campaign starts the byzantine empire is supposed to have fallen. What if we want to see the byzantine empire dominate the entire world ? What if we want to see the teutonic order violently conquer all of Russia for mother-church ? Total war is and never has been "about history" its only been "set in a historical context", which is a loose description at best. It might be Stainless Steel's mission to increase historical realism in the game however, I am certain that SS does not intend to ruin what makes total war games so fun- messing around in a timeline, and doing whatever you please.

The order is also one of the most unique and best looking factions in the mod, hands down, that at least i think you'll have a hard time arguing, the only side that comes close to how good they look would probably the mongols in RR/RC, or the byzantines of CBUR if your into that faction.

In addition, lets not forget the role the TO has in the mod: the order is one of those "hard" factions, which start out incredibly small and are surrounded by potential threats. Its really so much fun trying to make the order survive beyond its time.

Also, you people seem obsessed with removing factions, but in favor of.... what, exactly ? The two most wanted factions in the strata of this mod appear to be: Bulgaria, and Armenia. I get why people might want Armenia, but why take out the TO to make that happen ? No really, these great new factions people dream of are nice concepts but in practice i think what you'll find is that they probably wont make up for the fun the others gave players. The teutonic order is one of the most loved factions in this mod, that is a fact and without an exceptional reason to remove them (read: there doesnt seem to be one) i would be inclined to disagree with some of the sentiment in this thread.

The KOJ should stay in for the same reason (though, perhaps renamed to be the "crusader states" and be merged with the templars faction).

hell yeah, heard dat!

[Gogolometro]

Not agree. TO and KOJ have a frustating roosters in 1450. Sorry if I mess up. My ideea was, what if only.
Dont understand me wrong, I love TO, a great fan of TO, I think about what I suggest obnly for 1450 campaign. Is total other game than 1220 or early. Hope we agree here. Sorry if I mess up your love for TO.

[HolyDevil]

While I agree that this is not a history book, it would be fun to start from the set points, wich you mentioned, that ARE OK with history. Also this rule could be bent, for example, the byzantine is far too great to be eliminated just cuze of 3 years, start the campaing eariier, or simply let them be, make their campaing hard as hell, like a vassal of the turks, or something along those lines

but some factions are too small of a deal to in the late campaing... , for example, the Wallachia question, I support it since it does make sense, heck thats the origin of "Dracula", would be quite fun to play with such a faction, imho...

in asia, late era-wise, i don't see room for more factions, without making the campaing EXTREMELY diffuclt for the existing ones... maybe georgia/armenia, but if they start weak, they get overun quickly, if they start in a OK foot, they will make another existing faction get exterminated quite fast...


my idea

[Rolling Thunder]

Remove Byzantium in 1450 and I will murder you in your sleep.

[Ichon]

Not remove TO or others totally from SS, but some campaign start would be more fun with actual variety.

A 1450 campaign with Ottomans being a beast is nice, but you need a couple other factions in the east as well to distract them otherwise Europe would be overrun. Mamlukes and a Khanate or Sultanate would be perfect. Not really big enough to challenge Ottomans which start with Greece, Anatolia, Iraq, and most of Syria but Mamlukes in Egypt and part of Syria and something else in the east of Ottomans is more fun.

In Europe a united Spain, large France, England without worrying about back stab by Scotland, Grand Duchy of Moscow, Poland, Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Tatars, maybe Burgundy, or Swiss Confederacy, Sweden etc... would be quite fun I think vs just a repeat of early era campaign with more advanced cities.

[Point Blank]

Can someone give some detail on which cities should pass to HRE in Late Campaign? I'll remove Sicily.

1450 campaign is massively ahistorical, its really just an excuse to play with late era units.

After next RR/RC update (very very soon) I'll concentrate on 1370 historical campaign, with Burgundy, playable Timurids, Sweden, Golden Horde, Ilkhans Jalayrids, Ottomans, Vladimir

Also, will be looking to add Georgia into Early and 1220 campaigns, and also to add a faction to 1220 campaign to replace Sicily.

[Jiub]

Also, will be looking to add Georgia into Early and 1220 campaigns, and also to add a faction to 1220 campaign to replace Sicily.

Will Sicily give in the land to Hre or will it be sort of a Hre but separate from Hre [a vassal to Hre] OR will the spot be given to another sort of emergent faction ?
The question is addressed basically to whomever can provide a good answer and i guess is open to debate. I really started to be interested in this, and moreover interested in the new release !