overhand cavalry spears

[alextheseleucid]

what's with overhand cav spears being so sucky? i've noticed that cav unit w/ overhand spears suck at everything and are almost useless. their charge has practically no effect (btw, i am not one of those ppl who don't know how to charge cavalry. i know that you're supposed to charge at a certain distance, and that the lances have to be lowered in charging animation in order for it to work) and they can't kill anything in melee, not even skirmishers. two-handed lancers, and even one-handed underhand lancers can do way better than that.

[Mediolanicus]

They weren't the best cavalry out there, so that's normal.

IIRC they are great in cavalry against cavalry battles.
They can be usefull to support other units in melee too.

So yeah, they are a supporting unit, best placed along the flanks of the army.

[Watchman]

They weren't the best cavalry out there, so that's normal.

Seeing as how that was damn near the "international standard" method of cavalry spear-wielding for better part of that military arm's historical existence, I would suggest that line of reasoning doesn't quite hold water at least wihout some pretty hefty conditionals...

So yeah, they are a supporting unit, best placed along the flanks of the army.

...though that's more or less a truism for cavalry in general.

Maybe hiking their charge values to match those of 1-H underhand lances (which would be +3 to the current values) would help improve the in-game usefulness of the OH spears ? I'm well aware of the reasons behind the difference, but it could be argued that the very high lethality value and perhaps even more importantly the AP attribute of the underhands is more than enough to maintain their overall lead...

[Trax]

hey can't kill anything in melee, not even skirmishers.

IMHO they massacre skirmishers.
Unless you mean peltastai or something like that which is actually a decent infantry.

[alextheseleucid]

IMHO they massacre skirmishers.
Unless you mean peltastai or something like that which is actually a decent infantry.

well, i guess they can kill skirmishers, but they just take wicked long to do it because their spears can't hit anything. also, they take annoyingly high casualties.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Keep in mind that cavalry fighting light infantry is a major issue, since the ai keeps trying to skirmish and many times negates your charge. Some people have modified the edu files to counter that.

Anyhow for the cavalry in question they aren't anything real good, unit description hints it most of the time. I find it usefull as a reserve at times.

edit.

Oh charging cavalry. Make sure your cavalry has space to run in order to charge properly. Pull them back, reform them and then have em charge again. You know a unit charges successfully when you see it lowering their lances.

Best way to learn it is a little practise in a custom battle

[Trax]

well, i guess they can kill skirmishers, but they just take wicked long to do it because their spears can't hit anything. also, they take annoyingly high casualties.

Don't know, my heavy cavalry usually takes unacceptable casualties in melee even against all sorts of rabble,
light cavalry on the other hand tends to dispatch them quickly. The charge bonus of lancers is useless against the skirmishers because they never stand there to receive the charge, the ap attribute is also near worthless because they don't have any armour to speak of. That leaves us with the very low attack of primary weapon or with a secondary that is often not much worth either. As a result it takes them a lot of time to kill the annoying buggers, they get tired and knocked off one by one. The overhand cavalry on the other hand has a decent attack, decent lethality and often some javelins that they can throw at the skirmishers while chasing them down, causing a moral drop that makes it easy to cause a rout by the time they catch up. I also have a feeling that they are more effective at killing routers.

[alextheseleucid]

hmmm. that definitely makes sense, but in my experience, it's the reach of the underhand 1-H lancers and the 2-H lancers that makes the difference. cavalry seem to have a much easier time hitting enemies w/ underhand lances than w/ overhand spears. if you look at the animation of overhand cav fighting, you might notice that their spears can barely even reach their target. also, IIRC, underhand 1-H lancers and 2-H lancers have higher lethality than overhand lancers.

[torongill]

One solution is add penalty vs. cavalry to the light infantry. It works very well around the limits of the RTW engine. Generally I'm okay with the low attack of the 2-H pikes, they have much greater lethality and an incredible charge bonus. light cavalry are good in melee against the light infantry, because they have a lot of def skill.
penalty to the light infantry, with different values according to their equipment do the job quite well.

[Watchman]

Most if not all light infantry already *have* anti-cavalry penalties already, though... and IIRC the last time I hunted random Eleutheroi crap with FMs in need of exercise, even mere levy javelineers (who have pretty big penalties against horsies, some of the suckest melee stats evar and knives with puny 0.04 lethality) can actually do a pretty ridiculous amount of damage if you try to just plain charge and grind them down with even bodyguard-class heavy cav.

Repeat charges by and large seem to be the thing; preferably convergent with at least two horse units on one target at once, so as to get a rout ASAP. Which in a way actually makes sense, as cavalry by and large never did well against infantry in a straight slugging match but had to rely on its mobility to get the most mileage out of its merits...

[torongill]

When I started modifying my EDU, I didn't find any anti-cav penalties in the light infantry. I actually plagiarized the idea off the SPQR mod, which has -16 for the velites for example. The funny thing is though, most light infantry have spears, not knives. The ones that have knives are basically slingers and archers. Light javelineers usually have spears, i.e. "light_spear" attributes, which actually give them bonus vs cavalry. The huge problem with light infantry is that they negate charge bonii, which is what EB cavalry is all about - spear cavalry have 27-41 charge bonus. Light infantry aren't supposed to be able to slug it out with cavalry, unless it's light cavalry and it's elite light infantry and the grunts are attacking. What is portrayed as "light infantry moving away" in RTW is in fact retreat and rout. RTW cavalry is limited to the damage the rider can deal, whereas in RL it's more like stampede. So when a javelineers with 10 melee attack light spears face elite heavy cavalry with 4 attack, they have some 4 times more attack than the elite cavalry, charge bonus when they turn on the cavalry not included. I had seen again and again my 6 chevron 100-man unit upgraded equites face a unit of 0exp, 0upgrade velite brigands and lose 20 men in the time it takes them to kill 10-15 velites.

[Trax]

When I started modifying my EDU, I didn't find any anti-cav penalties in the light infantry.

type             roman skirmisher velites
dictionary       roman_skirmisher_velites      ; Velites
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_missile_velites, 50, 0, 0.95
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +4, horse -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 6, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         11, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  4, 11, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      11, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1038, 260, 30, 40, 1038
ownership        seleucid, slave

[torongill]

My bad, it's true they have. But look at this:

;207
type             hellenistic infantry indo greek hoplite
dictionary       hellenistic_infantry_indo_greek_hoplite      ; Peltastai Indohellenikoi
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_infantry_indogreek_iudaioitaxeis, 40, 0, 1.05
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +4, horse -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, very_hardy
formation        1.4, 1.8, 2.6, 3.2, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         5, 4, javelin, 45, 6, thrown, siege, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         15, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  8, 8, 2, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental      11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1188, 297, 30, 40, 1188
ownership        romans_brutii, pontus, parthia, slave

;201
type             iberian skirmisher velites
dictionary       iberian_skirmisher_velites      ; Iberi Velites
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          iberian_missile_velites_roman_leves, 60, 0, 0.9
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +4, horse -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hardy, can_swim
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         5, 2, javelin, 57.8, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         12, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  1, 9, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental      9, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 985, 246, 30, 40, 985
ownership        egypt, spain, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, gauls, britons, scythia, dacia, germans, armenia, pontus, saba

See, that's the other part of the coin. In a typical example, Roman horse attacks them, they retreat, the cav loses charge bonus, the lighties turn and charge with their spears. In this case the iberian velites will have initial attack of 20(attack+charge+spear attribute), which then lowers down to 18. At the same time the equites would have 8/9 attack spears/swords. So the velites would have a melee attacking advantage from 2 times to 2.75 times.
The indo peltastas would have 26 attack(attack+charge+spear bonus), lowering to 22 vs the equites. This translates to 2.45 to 3.25 times the horse's attack. And that against equites. Against Thessalian cavalry or Equites Extraordinarii, the modificator can rise up to 5-6.5 times. Do you think that's normal? Lowly velites VS the Elite cavalry of the italian cities can have up to 400% advantage in attack, while having 1/3 of the recruitment costs and 1/3 of the upkeep and enjoying 2.4:1 numerical advantage.
If the spear attribute is dropped, then the situation might get normal, but not in the current form.

[mcantu]

My bad, it's true they have. But look at this:

;207
type             hellenistic infantry indo greek hoplite
dictionary       hellenistic_infantry_indo_greek_hoplite      ; Peltastai Indohellenikoi
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_infantry_indogreek_iudaioitaxeis, 40, 0, 1.05
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +4, horse -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, very_hardy
formation        1.4, 1.8, 2.6, 3.2, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         5, 4, javelin, 45, 6, thrown, siege, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         15, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  8, 8, 2, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental      11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1188, 297, 30, 40, 1188
ownership        romans_brutii, pontus, parthia, slave

;201
type             iberian skirmisher velites
dictionary       iberian_skirmisher_velites      ; Iberi Velites
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          iberian_missile_velites_roman_leves, 60, 0, 0.9
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +4, horse -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hardy, can_swim
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         5, 2, javelin, 57.8, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         12, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  1, 9, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental      9, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 985, 246, 30, 40, 985
ownership        egypt, spain, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, gauls, britons, scythia, dacia, germans, armenia, pontus, saba

See, that's the other part of the coin. In a typical example, Roman horse attacks them, they retreat, the cav loses charge bonus, the lighties turn and charge with their spears. In this case the iberian velites will have initial attack of 20(attack+charge+spear attribute), which then lowers down to 18. At the same time the equites would have 8/9 attack spears/swords. So the velites would have a melee attacking advantage from 2 times to 2.75 times.
The indo peltastas would have 26 attack(attack+charge+spear bonus), lowering to 22 vs the equites. This translates to 2.45 to 3.25 times the horse's attack. And that against equites. Against Thessalian cavalry or Equites Extraordinarii, the modificator can rise up to 5-6.5 times. Do you think that's normal? Lowly velites VS the Elite cavalry of the italian cities can have up to 400% advantage in attack, while having 1/3 of the recruitment costs and 1/3 of the upkeep and enjoying 2.4:1 numerical advantage.
If the spear attribute is dropped, then the situation might get normal, but not in the current form.

there are a couple of things i'd like to mention...

first, the light_spear attribute gives +8 to defense. it does not give an attack bonus. the spear attribute is the one that gives +8 vs cav.

2nd, infantry charges work like cav charges...they need to start the charge from a certain distance for the charge bonus to kick in. if they are too close to the cav unit when they turn to attack, there is no charge bonus.

also, you left the mount effect out of your calculations...

[Trax]

light_spear attribute gives +8 to defense

+4 I think.

[torongill]

Actually I didn't omit the mount effect, but I did use +8 attack for the light_spear attribute, because that's what I'd read about it. light_spear = Same as spear, but has less pushing power than spear.
Although, I have to admit that light_spear having defence bonus is more consistent with the battlefield behaviour. It's still disturbing, though. I wonder this +8 defence is added to the skill or the total defence? If it's the former, then using my earlier example, the Iberi velites would have 1 armor and 17 defence and 2 shield, while the indi peltastas 8 armor, 16 defence and 2 shield. The polybian equites would have 11 armor, 8 defence and 3 shield, which means the following:
the iberi velites have 3 less total defence(1+17+2-2), but more than double the defensive skill of the equites, while enjoying 33%-50% advantage in attack over them.
the peltastas have 1 more total defence(8+16+2-1) and double the def skill of the equites, while enjoying 67%-87.5% advantage in attack over them.

I just read this: "Type of mount used (if any) by the unit. The mount's stats are in the descr_mount.txt in the data folder. Mounted units with ridden mounts (horsemen) get an average of +8 against all infantry, varying from case to case according to specific stats of units each time."
But I haven't found anything like that in the descr_mount.txt. Am I looking in the wrong file?

P.S.

+4 I think.

light_spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to defence vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to defence vs. infantry. Offers less pushing power than spear. It's from this tutorial.

[mcantu]

a bonus for spears vs cav makes perfect sense when you think of the standoff that a spear gives. also, once in melee a horse is very vulnerable to spear attacks from the left front, both sides and rear as the rider cannot defend those angles well.

the best tactic in EB is still to charge cav in from the sides or rear then withdraw after the charge is over

[torongill]

There's a difference, a significant one, between the 2.5m spears of the hoplites and the "I'm using my last javelin for melee" "spears" of the light missile infantry. And it's true that a lone rider surrounded from all sides by enemies can be attacked from all sides. But it works just the same for every unit, not just cavalry. The difference being that a warhorse is trained to fight as well, it bites, stomps, kicks and rears and in case you haven't seen it, a kick from a horse is only comical until you have to rush the kicked person to hospital. I kind of guess why in EB the cavalry has weaker stats, it's so that you don't abuse it and also that the only limit of recruiting a stack of cataphracts is really only money(which extensive trade brings in piles). But it's really annoying to recruit a cav unit that costs 3 times more and has 3 times more upkeep than some light infantry and see it massacred after chasing said light infantry unit.

[mcantu]

keep in mind that what youre calling light infantry are really skirmishers in game and skirmisher units are usually about 3-4x larger than the heavy cav units. of course a cav unit that stops to engage in melee combat and gets 4 enemies attacking each horse will suffer heavy casualties...

[torongill]

Well, you should also keep in mind that cavalry that chases a retreating skirmisher unit(and they are light infantry, they usually don't have any armor whatsoever and fight in open order) will most likely run it over(I'm talking RL here, not "olympic sprinters with the constitution of marathon runners, coordination of a cisco network and the inertial compensator of an alien spaceship"), not instantly lose its second-greatest advantage.
P.S. I don't have a problem with 3-4 skirmisher units attacking and massacring a unit of horsemen. I do have a problem when armored and equipped horsemen are massacred by a single light infantry unit that isn't supposed to enter close combat.