Dismounted Swordsmen

[DeliCiousTZM]

I have noticed that the higher tier swordsmen you get the lower the Defence skill and Shield value becomes. Now this is most likely because you want it to even out versus armor, but when my Dis-Chivalric knights have 21 defence value vs Feudal with 22 because of silver upgrade on armor. it becomes realy stupid.

[Point Blank]

DCK have 22 total defense, DFK have 20. A much higher amount of the DCK defense is its armor value, so it is in fact better compared to the DFK than the stats would indicate, especially versus missile fire. The increasing sophistication and weight of armor was more a matter of reacting to evolving missile threats, rather than melee.

[DeliCiousTZM]

All thou what u say might be tru far fetched as it may be, how do you account for the lowered shield value per upgrade? Look i just want better swordsmen per tier iam aware that Armour > Defence skill and shield but still.. Cant you keep Original values the same for defence skill and shield while upgrading Armour? i mean i figured they would go up not down to begin with, Ofc im playing RR/RC

[Vespasian92]

Hence, the somwhat encumbering heavy plate armor makes the soldier less flexible and harder to react against melee blows, thus reducing his capability to utilize his defense skill. This is why I prefer taking some medium troops and, with one or two armor upgrades to heavy mail or partial plate, gives them a great combination of having heavy armor without losing its defense skill.

[Point Blank]

Right, lighter-armored units often have a little better defense. Note that this value is decided by the average of all armor levels for the available upgrades, biased slightly towards unupgraded or 1 upgrade.

Regarding the shield, compare the 2 units - the DFK has a large kite shield, the DCK a smaller heater. I'm assigning stats as the unit model is depicted. The trend towards smaller shields is historically correct. DCK also has better attack.

Once units began to wear good plate, they often discarded the shield entirely because they considered the armor alone sufficient defense, especially versus missiles. This allowed them to use heavier and more effective 2H weapons.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Historicly correct Might not be practical i mean as long as they do have shield isent it reasonable to assume they are improving ? and whois to say Smaller isent better i mean i find it hard to belive that they would throw away their good well made shields and replace it with something worse. and if they get smaller shield should't that be made up with higher defence skill ? assuming again that the armors are made from ligher stronger composits.

[Vespasian92]

That's why it still lets you recruit your earlier era units, with mail armor and larger shields so you can choose balances of the armor and shields you want.

[Point Blank]

OK, a large kite shield provides 5 shield value, and has a heat penalty of 2. A smaller heater provides 3 shield value +1 defense, and has heat penalty 1, so offsetting the higher heat penalty of the partial plate of the DCK.

The smaller shield wasn't 'worse', it was designed to be more maneuverable in melee and less as a defense versus missiles.

From the front, the large kite adds 5 shield value, and from the sides, 2.5 shield value to overall defense. The smaller heater adds 4 (3 +1 defense) from the front (though only 3 versus missiles), and 2.5 from the sides (1.5 for the shield +1 for the defense). So the only circumstance in which the kite shield is better in melee is 1 more from directly in front - from the sides its the same - and 2 better versus missiles from the front and 1 better from the sides. The DFK also has 1 better defense value (agility bonus for lighter armor), but its armor is 5 worse, a major difference, which easily cancels out the small advantage versus missiles provided by the kite, and provides protection from all angles.

Note the smaller shield also allows the use of a longsword by the DCK with better attack, whereas the DFK is using a regular 'arming' sword because it is more encumbered by the shield. So all these factors are tradeoffs - you can't just keep a big shield, then add more and more armor, plus carry a heavier weapon as well - the guy inside all that is still the same size.

So you can see that in fact the DCK is somewhat better compared to the DFK than a first glance at the stats would indicate.

[DeliCiousTZM]

DFK and DCK use diffrent Sets of weapon? I thought a Sword and shield were just a sword and shield?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Not in RC they aren't.

[DeliCiousTZM]

whats the diffrence ? i mean in terms of game mechanics not visual?

[Jean=A=Luc]

If you have rc/rr installed it's best if you look at the "RealCombat 1.8 Guide.pdf" which should be located in "mods\Stainless_Steel_6". Each weapon has its own set of attributes according to its real life performance (as accurately as one can accomplish this with the TW system).

Differences are what you'd expect in attack value, charge, attack delay, def. skill, etc. PB's show a good shield example in the posts above.

[axnsan]

Look if you don't like it just revert to SS 6.1 or 6.2 or whatever. Nobody forces you to play RC/RR.

Yes as far as game mechanics are concerned a sword and a shield is a sword and a shield. It's just the stats that differentiate them, and it's logics that decide which stats should get lower and which should get higher

[DeliCiousTZM]

Look if you don't like it just revert to SS 6.1 or 6.2 or whatever. Nobody forces you to play RC/RR.

Yes as far as game mechanics are concerned a sword and a shield is a sword and a shield. It's just the stats that differentiate them, and it's logics that decide which stats should get lower and which should get higher

why are you picking a fight axnsan. PB said that the DCK use Longswords i wonder how this differ from the sword DFK has diffrent attack animation ? or is it just a visual longsword with the stats improved. And i still think the Shield stats should be raised the argument that a Kite shield would defend better from sides is sound, but im assuming what it lacks in something it makes up for in something else. besides im sure you can carry a longsword with a kiteshield aswel and if its more manoverable perhaps 1+ should be added to defence skill

[PerXX]

I think PB's given a quite good explanation as of why the stats are the way they are.
Luckily if you feel any different, it's quite easy to edit the EDU, to get the unit stats you would prefer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Dismounted Chivalric Knights
dictionary Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights ; Dismounted Chivalric Knights, f
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights, 48, 0, 1.2
officer Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag

attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 9, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 8, 3, metal <-- Change the last number for a higher Shield Value
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 8
stat_ground -1, -3, 1, -1
stat_mental 15, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 900, 480, 90, 70, 900, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 16, 21, 23, 26
armour_ug_models Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1
ownership france, denmark, spain
era 1 france, denmark, spain
era 2 france
recruit_priority_offset 35

[DeliCiousTZM]

I think PB's given a quite good explanation as of why the stats are the way they are.
Luckily if you feel any different, it's quite easy to edit the EDU, to get the unit stats you would prefer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Dismounted Chivalric Knights
dictionary Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights ; Dismounted Chivalric Knights, f
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights, 48, 0, 1.2
officer Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag

attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 9, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 1 <-- represents Longsword
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 8, 3, metal <-- Change the last number for a higher Shield Value
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 8
stat_ground -1, -3, 1, -1
stat_mental 15, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 900, 480, 90, 70, 900, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 16, 21, 23, 26
armour_ug_models Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1, Dismounted_Chivalric_Knights_ug1
ownership france, denmark, spain
era 1 france, denmark, spain
era 2 france
recruit_priority_offset 35

axnsan you are confused DFK has the extra defence skill not DCK. And there is a diffrence between the Swords of a DFK and DCK its the Piercing abillity, this is what i wondered. Can i go into the Edu and change everything myself? ofc i can with ease but im more intressted in learning what Point blank was thinking and reasoning when he changed the stats assuming that hes knowledge in this area is superior which it is. Besides if i someone question my work and the reasoning behind certain things i would be glad to answer and discuss i mean who else would ask him about this things?

I buffed DCK with 1+ to Defence skill and 1+ to shields so the shield value is still lower then DFK and defence the same. Iam working under the assumption that they didn't nesccery give away their mobility with the armour that DCK in the words of PB "The smaller shield wasn't 'worse', it was designed to be more maneuverable in melee and less as a defense versus missiles."

[axnsan]

why are you picking a fight axnsan. PB said that the DCK use Longswords i wonder how this differ from the sword DFK has diffrent attack animation ? or is it just a visual longsword with the stats improved. And i still think the Shield stats should be raised the argument that a Kite shield would defend better from sides is sound, but im assuming what it lacks in something it makes up for in something else. besides im sure you can carry a longsword with a kiteshield aswel and if its more manoverable perhaps 1+ should be added to defence skill

And I told you that, like you said, from the game's point of view sword ans shield is sword and shield. The only difference is stat and visual wise, and PB gave good explanation as to why they are like that.

Note the +1 defence skill that the smaller shield gives compared to the kite(in PB's post). I guess that's the manouvrabilty you're talking about.

[Snelhest]

The thing about plate armor atleast early is that it's not heavier than full chainmail. Knights would use heavier armor in turneys to avoid injury or death, but on the battle field the lighter armor was more usefull. A man wearing a plate harness doesn't lose any considerable amount of flexibility, and thus defense ability. However a more reasonable peanalty for heavier armor, especially the very late plate armors that are heavier is a penalty to unit endurance.

[luciferleigh]

add to that the fact that DCK are newer troops, and their swords are probably "better" (for a lack of a better explanation) as forging techniques have also evolved with the advance in armor

[axnsan]

That's probably because the heavier armor restricts movement more than the smaller shield offers.