heavy first rate ships ~half firepower of first rate?

[Vann7]

I finally can build Heavy first rate and first rate ships in game,(spain)

some stats.. are..

First rate (heavy first rate)
Guns .......106 (122)

Firepower .......478 ( 270)
Range ........400 ( 400)


hull strenght .....8368 ( 9570)

can anyone explain me ..why the (heavy first rate) firepower is about half of the standar first rate ship? 270 vs 478 .. even though the ship info says is an more powerfull upgraded first rate that use more powerfull cannons whenever possible?

a second question could be how firepower stats works on batle ships..



thx

[thijser]

firepower is the average of the firepower of each indivuedal gun. This means that if you add a few light guns to a ship the firepower will decrease if you want to know the total firepower of a ship multiplay it with the amout of canons and you will know how much it is.

[daniu]

if you want to know the total firepower of a ship multiplay it with the amout of canons and you will know how much it is.

That doesn't really answer the question though, because even then the First Rate has 50668, while the Heavy has 32940 total, so it's still less...

[Vann7]

perhaps ..the developers.. miscalculated the firepower of heavyfirst rate .. by mixing small cannons and big ones together in their average Fp formula .....
(the extra cannons in the heavy rate are small ) . so if for example.. 99% of the cannons firepower is ~500.. but a couple (1-3) of cannons in the ship have only ~250 .. the average of the whole cannons will be.. developers way.. significantivelyt lower if the extra 20 cannons are used as representative of the average fire power of the ship..

the way i understood.. by reading on internet about heavy first rate.. they are just normal first rate.. with a few extra smaller guns (~20) in the deck and extra hull protection.. still dont know how a first rate with extra guns can have less firepower in the end.


perhaps is only an error in the stats window.. and in real game combat heavy rates.. do more damage per round as intended.. ?

[Lumina]

Heavy First Rate is better, despite it's has a lot of smaller guns, it also has more of them, a cannon ball is a cannon ball, those cannon balls can disable another ships cannons and kill alot of crew just as effectively as a larger one, now sinking the ship on the otherhand larger guns are better, but still the Heavy First Rate holds the deadliest broad side as it can destroy it's enemies ability to fight back much easier in a direct shoot out. If you look at a heavy vs a normal First Rate it isn't much larger, so most of its extra guns come from the fact it has smaller guns.

[Vann7]

i can confirm there is something bad with the info displayed on ship info tab.. is diferent
at times from the info u get *while in combat*.. on the ship (right click on unit card)

firepower is rated about 50% less of standar first rate in campaign map but while in combat is rated about 10% less of the standar first rate.. which in the end by multiply per guns give the heavy more power as expected albeit about 10% more.. the defense is also better..

hope someone release a mod and fix the stats so they are displayed correctly in every place and maybe
represent more accurately each ship firepower capabilities in battle.

[MortenJessen]

Hi there.
A 1st rate has a firepower of 2490, a Heavy 1st rate has a firepower of 2200. But the heavy first rate has 9600 hullstrenght compared to the 8400 of the 1st rate.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[Vann7]

Hi there.
A 1st rate has a firepower of 2490, a Heavy 1st rate has a firepower of 2200. But the heavy first rate has 9600 hullstrenght compared to the 8400 of the 1st rate.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

yep thats correct.. however.. .. if u multiply the firepower vs guns..however .. the heavy first rate guns * fp (122 x 2200 = 268,400) vs (106 * 2488 = 263,400) is still abit higher the firepower
for the heavy ship.. albeit not that much.. since the extra guns are much smaller. which is more in line with what should be. campaign numbers are a way off of the ones the ships have in game battle.

[P|A|ntZ]

I have yet to see an explanation anywhere in the past year of how firepower is calculated for display, but the general consensus is that it yields a number that cannot reliably be used as a direct comparison of the combined power of all ship's cannons.

Cannon size is likely one factor, but I suspect it is not being done in a way that the firepower is calculated as a properly weighted average. No doubt range and other factors are in the soupy mix of a formula used. Also, the firepower number doesn't seem to change for a vessel when other attributes do, like experience, lost crew, lost (unmanned) cannons, global bonuses, etc.

Long story short; don't make any decisions based on the firepower number. It's fairly arbitrary. You're far better off using experience and intuition.

[MortenJessen]

yep thats correct.. however.. .. if u multiply the firepower vs guns..however .. the heavy first rate guns * fp (122 x 2200 = 268,400) vs (106 * 2488 = 263,400) is still abit higher the firepower
for the heavy ship.. albeit not that much.. since the extra guns are much smaller. which is more in line with what should be. campaign numbers are a way off of the ones the ships have in game battle.

Hi there.
Where on earth did you dream up that calculation? Look at the link supplied. The correct calculus is made there.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=286567
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[P|A|ntZ]

August 15, 2009, 12:35 PM / Re: 2nd Rate ships have less firepower than 3rd Rates? #22

Quartermaster Sergeant


Hi all.
I need to make this as a new post instead of editing the above post 18, as the math in that post is still valid as an example.
How ever, the described ship in post 18 has nothing to do with a 3rd rate, as a 3rd rate only has 2 decks and her upper works. So here are the numbers for the actual 3rd rate. The 74-gun ship carried twenty-eight 32- or 36-pound guns on the lower gun deck, thirty 18-pounders on the upper gun deck, and sixteen 9-pounders on the upper works. That is the 1220 firepower 3rd rate. With 166 being the avarege single cannon firepower.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

Okay, I'm still not seeing the actual calculations that yield the firepower numbers. M.Jessen, you clearly have a good amount of knowledge from somewhere about ship and gun configurations of the period, and that is very interesting. What some of us are trying to understand is where the actual figures in ETW come from (i.e. how they are generated).

In the above example, I'm not sure how one arrives at 1220 with the numbers supplied. Are you multiplying calibre (shot weight) by quantity and adding those up? I assume not, as that would resolve thusly:

(28 x 32) + (30 x 18) + (16 x 9) = 1580

or if we opt for 36lb'ers instead of 32lb'ers:
(28 x 36) + (30 x 18) + (16 x 9) = 1692

What formula does the game use to arrive at 1220 for a 3rd rate?

[Vann7]

Hi there.
Where on earth did you dream up that calculation? Look at the link supplied. The correct calculus is made there.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=286567
Y.S.
M. Jessen

when u are in actual ship battle.. (not campaign) before you start.. just right click on the ship unit info and u will
see *ships firepower numbers greatly differs from the ones in campaign map.. the ones in campaign map aren't correct . (at least for spain) heavyFR at 2200.. x 122 guns = 268 ,400 .
the first rate was rated before battle for (not rounded) 2488... x 106 guns = 263,128 . my results are for total firepower.. the average power of 1 cannon says not much of how much power a ship really have , me thinks.

[dutch81]

Most French: +10 Accuracy +1 Speed +Hull
Most British: +15 Reload +Hull
Most US: +10 Reload +Hull

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=241293

Check out Le Fussils guide ... very usefull info on this kind of stuff ... and it is where I got the information I listed above.

[antred]

I would also like to know why sixth and fifth rates have a range of 500, whereas every ship larger than that only has a range of 400.

[daniu]

I would also like to know why sixth and fifth rates have a range of 500, whereas every ship larger than that only has a range of 400.

To have a reason to produce them at all.
All ships used to have the same range, but that got changed in a patch because it was really "bring the largest ship you can build".

[antred]

To have a reason to produce them at all.
All ships used to have the same range, but that got changed in a patch because it was really "bring the largest ship you can build".

Well, I disagree with that decision because there are already 2 excellent reasons to build them.

1) They are so much faster and more agile than the bigger ships they can run rings around them.
2) They're cheaper. You can't afford to have fleets of nothing but 1st rates in every theater.

[Zaydin]

Well, I disagree with that decision because there are already 2 excellent reasons to build them.

1) They are so much faster and more agile than the bigger ships they can run rings around them.
2) They're cheaper. You can't afford to have fleets of nothing but 1st rates in every theater.

Pretty much. First rates make for good battle fleets, but if you want to protect your trade ships, it's better to have a fleet of frigates, with maybe a third rate or two tossed in for extra firepower. A less expensive fleet to replace if you lose ships.

[daniu]

Well, I disagree with that decision because there are already 2 excellent reasons to build them.

1) They are so much faster and more agile than the bigger ships they can run rings around them.
2) They're cheaper. You can't afford to have fleets of nothing but 1st rates in every theater.

Pretty much. First rates make for good battle fleets, but if you want to protect your trade ships, it's better to have a fleet of frigates, with maybe a third rate or two tossed in for extra firepower. A less expensive fleet to replace if you lose ships.

Yes, all true of course, but play a Custom Battle... what are you going to get?
There are balancing requirements beyond the campaign.

[Lumina]

Well, I disagree with that decision because there are already 2 excellent reasons to build them.

1) They are so much faster and more agile than the bigger ships they can run rings around them.
2) They're cheaper. You can't afford to have fleets of nothing but 1st rates in every theater.

You forget one good broadside from a First Rate would rip the sails and mast off a poor 5th Rate you know making it's speed and mobility completely useless, in the end the larger ships would always get shots off some time or another, and their attacks were murder. 5th Rates and below on the other hand have to completely beat a heavier ship into submission for an extended period of time, and time is the largest ships best weapon because of their much stronger hulls.

Though I still cry the 3rd and 4th Rates were hurt very badly because of the 500 range thing for 5ths and below, I still see the point of it, I actually use 5th Rates a lot now, much cheaper, and I can have two of them working together in a fleet of two and take on much larger ships, if a fleet is too large you can always sail to the edge of a map and keep running, since they are smaller they can also sail quicker on the world map. 6th and 5th Rates now stand a chance against the Spanish AI's Galleon spam, which is a much great praise for the new 500 range frigates, as those Galleons are evil, its like giving spain cheap 4th Rates.

[P|A|ntZ]

So what I'm gathering is that nobody knows how the firepower figures are calculated. Seems like some guesses, but no actual math. Am I missing something?