New! XAI 4.0 Discussion and feedback.

[Achilla]

I'm still testing the AI and diplomacy but I discovered that this mod can cause battles to crash with alarming frequency.

For reasons I don't fully understand it you set the formation to 'horde' rather than 'square' this can cause the mod to crash if a unit's category is 'cavalry' and its class is 'skirmish', a unit's category is 'cavalry' and its class is 'light',or a unit's category is 'infantry' and its class is 'spearmen'. Do you know why this is occurring?

Horde is very bad formation and you should never use it.

Infantry units with 'horde' will fail to ram the gates, have troubles navigating ladders/siege towers and in general moving around. It's not matter of XAI, it's a general problem.

For similar reason cavalry goes nuts in the same manner with this formation.

Crashes might be caused by our advanced pathfinding, or a random matrix of other factors.

Either way, it's not matter of the AI here.

Horde is broken and you use it on your own risk.

We don't fix buggy CA code here, feel free to send them a bug report, though (maybe you get answered in this century).

[Vaz]

uanime, I'm not sure if there are any hard code bonuses to the Horde formation, but couldn't you get the same effect by making the unit have square formation in several ranks, with wide inter unit spacing?

[uanime5]

I posted the problems using the horde formation because before I used your mod I had no problems with any unit that used the horde formation. As the reason for the crash didn't show up in the error log and it took me hours to try to figure out why my mod was crashing I though you might appreciate knowing that that your mod could cause this crash and would like to warn others that they may experience problems if they use the horde formation. Sadly it seems that you decided to dismiss my advice and claim I was somehow at fault for your shortcomings. If you want people to test your mod for you you shouldn't blame them for any problems they find.

[xeryx]

@ Uanime5, I sure appreciate, your opinion. What mod did you incorperate it in??!! Did you CLEAR YOUR CACHE! If you think about how you presented the LACK of information, it was not in a precise way. You do not have to use our formations and that is why they are separate, We recommend them but they are optional. Maybe Miikll can do some work on them and I can talk with Soul Firez. We will put in a note about the horde formation when we can confirm the issue. Achilla is correct, horde formation is a crap and useless formation. The separation of classes, have no effect on you. Nor have we ever had a crash using XAI on the 3 different mods.

We don't dismiss things, but that doesn't mean we can't forget, get side tracked or get upset too. There is no need for personal statements like you made on this board.

Can you give us more info? as to what is causing your failure. Try replacing your files one by one, until the crash goes away. I hope you backed up your originals.

So far no other reports of this crash, have been claimed. If anyone else wants to report the actual mod it is being used in and give detailed information about it that we can use to help determine the root cause, it would be appreciated.

I do appreciate that this matter has been brought up, if it is confirmed by 3 different sources, then we will consider it a legitimate issue. However, we cannot guarantee mod compatibility, as that is totally impossible.

[Achilla]

I posted the problems using the horde formation because before I used your mod I had no problems with any unit that used the horde formation. As the reason for the crash didn't show up in the error log and it took me hours to try to figure out why my mod was crashing I though you might appreciate knowing that that your mod could cause this crash and would like to warn others that they may experience problems if they use the horde formation. Sadly it seems that you decided to dismiss my advice and claim I was somehow at fault for your shortcomings. If you want people to test your mod for you you shouldn't blame them for any problems they find.

Sorry, our AI isn't direct cause for the crash.

As for the problem you've raised, I've experienced it myself over GV's AI & ReallyBadAI as well, at random, the mods were Third Age and BC.

It's usually a matter of messing up with EDU, animations, models and all the other stuff, as far as the crashes go. The 'horde' formation is simply unfinished and not stable. It clearly has many flaws as well. Not sure why would you use it?

There is a difference between bringing up a problem and directly blaming us for introducing crashes/faulty code/whatever. It wasn't what you said, but how you said it. Your note has been taken and I will update the documentation. Sentences like 'your mod can be causing crashes with alarming frequency' do nothing but make people believe our AI introduces numerous problems, while it isn't the case. Frankly, AI is never direct cause for the crash. All conflicting values and parameters are always ignored by the game. The crash you describe is a matter of many factors, beyond our control.

[xeryx]

Deleted his post, double post.

My friends, you have had some time to play. I am working on campaign stuff over the next couple of weeks. So I will need plenty of feedback. I know there are some adjustments to be made, so it won't be perfect yet.

Lets start getting the feedback rolling! Cuz I'm making a list. Cuz you can bet springtime is in the air. I can assure you that my time will start to get very scarce, very soon. Otherwise you will have to live with it, when I patch it.

moved to release

[BURNY26]

So ive been playing as norway for about 20 turns now .

naval invasions
in scandinavia : HRR ,teutonic order
on the island west of scotland: Wales ,Ireland and England

but most of the time they board the land and reboard the ship in the same time

-Kievan Rus is the vassal of ?both? mongols and Poland

General impression , im playing on H/H now , and i have to say that ive enjoyed it so far .

Ill be sure to report back once in a while on the AI .

[xeryx]

So ive been playing as norway for about 20 turns now .

naval invasions

but most of the time they board the land and reboard the ship in the same time

-Kievan Rus is the vassal of ?both? mongols and Poland

Interesting, what mod are you playing with?

Never seen a double Vassal??? Can you post a screen shot, because I think it is only possible to have one.

Also on the naval invasion, do you have FOW off? and are they caught in a "cycle" if so this is a known bug of the game. Sometimes it occurs after reloading a saved game. Speaking from my experience.

[BURNY26]

KGCM 4.2 + heroes ,hordes and villains 3.0 + XCAI 4.0 + XBAI 4.0

I have it turned off , but they only do that once . But i find it sad that sometimes they send like 4-5 units ,this isnt exactly a real invasion of the scandinavian mainland . However they do offer reinforcements .

About Kievan Rus (the vassal with two lords ) ,he became vassalised by both in the same turn .

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[xeryx]

Wow, that is very very interesting! Thank you. I will have to check on this one. BTW what level of difficulty are you playing?

Will you play and keep a very close on them, for me (vassal) Watch the map, and see thy get protected and all that stuff. You can PM me with details if you like.

[BURNY26]

np ill keep an eye out on their progress. any other things i need to focus on ?

H/H

Ill send reports each 10 turns

[BURNY26]

So now im pretty much stranded(read beaten) on turn 31, and nothing has changed considering Kievan Rus Mongol and Polish territory .

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just one remark , ive noticed that sometimes the charges of the units are stopped right before clashing or that one line is sent ,hesitantly followed by the rest after 15s.

[JWoods]

Hi,

First thanks for a superb job. Cannot imagine playing this game now without it. Had the game since it came out but never really had a chance to play. This is my first post in years... My version is fairly well modded based on the Retrofit/Guam with 8 added provinces and a LOT of ideas borrowed from KGCM and other Mod workshop ideas. Integration very easy and no problems. I have a fair amount of cities having garrisons scripts to stop the single general sitting alone so expansion is a bit slower also.

Ran 3-4 100 turn test campaigns with 4.0

The only strange thing I can see is playing as Venice - the Sicilian faction heir parked himself alone on the bridge into Venice and did not move for 30 turns. Sicily also had a single unit of spearmen do the same thing to Zagreb stranded themselves one square away for multiple turns.. I was not at war and did not want to start a war..

No idea if this is caused by XCAI or just the basic game itself.

Installed 4.01a last night and ran a 50 turn test. Byzantine expansion is MUCH better they go straight for Venice(AI) whereas before they were more passive. Playing as Sicily - Egypt came straight for Sicily-It looks like the Muslim/Orthodox factions are a lot more aggressive now which is good.

Only weird thing I saw was a Portuguese General on a crusade alone.

Anyway thanks again for all of the time and effort that went into this.

JW

[xeryx]

Hi guys!

JFYI I just received an email from MZ. He is doing an integration on a Russian mod.
He had some errors in his log. The mod he put the XfS file in, had religions that did not match by the log.
It didn't crash the game, but gave strange behavior.

There are 3 files associated with religion. (that I know of)
These are the desc_religion.txt, descr_religion_lookup.txt, desc_sm-factions.

These files are very small in comparison to the XfS file and very easy to mod.

XfS contains the following religions, because we are running a baseline test on KGCM

catholic, orthodox, islam, pagan, sungod, heretic

You should only need to make sure all the religions (in your mod) are included in the 2 religions.txt files. Just add them to the files religion files. I was told there are a max of 10 religions. If you have an odd one that needs special rules, you can always add it to the XfS file. Just remember exact syntax.

Does anyone else know if I have missed something? I don't have a way to test this right now. So I am now asking you guys for some help testing and clarifying this issue up.

MZ is installing XAI into a russian version of the game, and that maybe the issue. Run your logs guys, I have no errors in mine at all. He may have a bad down load too, so we will see. Thanks

I'm Glad you are being challenged BURNY. I will make note of it, I think it is the group formation settings.

Hey JWoods!
Well we must have done something right to bring you out of lurkdom!
Yes units will occasionally get stuck. We suspect it is from reloading a save game. It is like the orders get lost or the messenger got assassinated on the way to the general. It might be a map path finding issue too. The upper AI or Game Hard code, controls the stack and what target to invade. We guide it there in the decisions to find the best target, but the hard code actually takes control beyond that point. Usually by 30 turns they get unstuck. We tested this a few times, by running 50 or so turns without saving and no issues. Then later of course to test you games, you reload them. On different occasions we found stuck units.

The XfS file is much more straight forward with a higher degree of bonuses and penalties. It was skewed to much to the positive in the old file. Which in turn prevented many of the aggressive actions of the XcAI from taking place.

I am glad you are enjoying it, do me a favor please and check your log for errors.

[xeryx]

I need to go back and revisit the Xfs file, Master Zuma was on the ball though and found it.

So for now, don't use the 4.01 xfs file. Don't be discouraged yet, I will keep trying!! If nothing else, I will change the rules. Because I still feel we need a more universal fs file that is plug and play. (guess I need some practice at scripting anyway!!)

[JWoods]

What I have noticed so far in using the XFS(I know you said to not to use it) and 4.01a.. H/H as Sicily

My popemeter was down to 2 notches so I gave the pope 100 florins. It shot up 6 notches. I tried this 2 times with 100 florins per turn for 10 turns and a standalone 100 bribe. Same result both times. Seems a bit excessive?

Alliances now seem too weak and/or AI too aggressive. Moors attack on turn 3 in Palermo. Ally Venice attacks via blockade turn 30 while they are under heavy pressure from Byzantium.

My reputation goes down from a start of mixed to untrustworthy doing absolutely nothing negative (50 turns). No bribes, assassinations, attacks (only defend). Is it supposed to do this?

Penalty for not going on a crusade were negligible. One or 2 notches I believe.

Should I try M/H?

Couple other things I noticed

I have preplaced some buildings like ports / mines. Say a port on Crete belonging to Venice in descr_strat. Byzantium takes Crete and when I go to take Crete there is no port? I have seen this more than once. I thought the AI did not destroy buildings or was the RTW?

Also I had Tripoli and was advancing to Alexandria when I saw 4 Egyptian forts all in a row blocking land access to Egypt. Each fort was completely full of units. Never seen that before was great.

I'm aware that this is probably beyond the capability of this game but it would be nice if alliances had a fixed length or had to be canceled diplomatically... Wishful thinking!

PS I will check my log - forgot..

JW

[brousell]

I think so far over all XAI 4.0 is pretty good..(I have cleared my system cache)

One thing I would like to change with the XBAI though, when battle lines are drawn up and archers go out to skirmish when I intercept them with cavalry the AI battle line just stands there while I kill the archers off, I can't remember what version I had of XBAI but it never used to do this. How do I set the open battles for the AI to chrage as soon as the skirmish line has been intercepted? I've always found this tatic made for a much more challanging battle as I think there then is more of a point to archer skirmishs.

XCAI is the best I've ever played espacially whe the new faction standing file. How would I make the XCAI go totally insane?

Cheers

[Achilla]

What I have noticed so far in using the XFS(I know you said to not to use it) and 4.01a.. H/H as Sicily

My popemeter was down to 2 notches so I gave the pope 100 florins. It shot up 6 notches. I tried this 2 times with 100 florins per turn for 10 turns and a standalone 100 bribe. Same result both times. Seems a bit excessive?

Alliances now seem too weak and/or AI too aggressive. Moors attack on turn 3 in Palermo. Ally Venice attacks via blockade turn 30 while they are under heavy pressure from Byzantium.

My reputation goes down from a start of mixed to untrustworthy doing absolutely nothing negative (50 turns). No bribes, assassinations, attacks (only defend). Is it supposed to do this?

Penalty for not going on a crusade were negligible. One or 2 notches I believe.

Should I try M/H?

Couple other things I noticed

I have preplaced some buildings like ports / mines. Say a port on Crete belonging to Venice in descr_strat. Byzantium takes Crete and when I go to take Crete there is no port? I have seen this more than once. I thought the AI did not destroy buildings or was the RTW?

Also I had Tripoli and was advancing to Alexandria when I saw 4 Egyptian forts all in a row blocking land access to Egypt. Each fort was completely full of units. Never seen that before was great.

I'm aware that this is probably beyond the capability of this game but it would be nice if alliances had a fixed length or had to be canceled diplomatically... Wishful thinking!

PS I will check my log - forgot..

JW

If you use KGCM baseline and play as Sicily, then it's possible you have fallen a victim of two things ... first - alliance with the Pope is a devil's work and while Pope loves you honouring the alliance, everyone else hates you immensely for clear political advantage this gives you (in form of excommunications, very clear vote on the next crusades etc.) ... second - when you are weak, other AI factions will not hesitate on the easy prey. You see, Venice might be already under heavy pressure, but as they see some weak Sicilian guy it's only a matter of time to attack him, especially when he is weakest prey in the area. Moors don't like Christians and aren't afraid of naval invasions, and being few times stronger than Sicily it doesn't surprise me at all. No, the AI is too stupid to destroy own buildings/units, however when it takes a settlement and sacks/exterminates it, it will destroy a whole bunch of buildings (exactly the same happens when you sack/exterminate settlements).

@ brousell

We are aware of the issue, however BAI has taken a back seat now because we need to focus on the CAI first. Since we are really busy I doubt we will be able to address this and other BAI-related problems for quite some time.

Totally insane ... play a weak underdog in the middle of other factions (preferably centre of big land mass with high settlement density). They will look after easiest prey, and most likely that will be you.

[JWoods]

No KCGM - Retro

No alliance ever with Pope only Venice

I'll refrain from gifting $$ for now

[Achilla]

No KCGM - Retro

No alliance ever with Pope only Venice

I'll refrain from gifting $$ for now

Then it seems something needs to get looked into, I guess