Sooo, Shedding a Light on the Myths of Catholic Excess (Including Pedophilia)

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

A lot of people in the world hate the Catholic Church. The causes of that hate vary, from no credible reason at all, to religious feelings ("I dislike their ceremony! The Church is the spawn of Satan on the Earth"), to distorted historical and actual interpretations of facts ("The Inquisition caused a Genocide! Catholics are repressive, abusive, ignorant and illiterate! The Spanish were Catholic and the Spanish were evil!" and "Priests are corrupt! Celibacy corrupts them!") and finally, "The Catholic Church is responsible for killing millions of people with AIDS in Africa!" and the "Catholic Church is an obscurantist, intolerant institution with an extreme of corruption!".

Well, without addressing all of these points, one of which has validity, while all the others don't, let me start by addressing the central point of the latest scandal, namely that of pedophilia.

A lot of rumours run around that priests are promiscuous beings who are more often than not tempted towards having sex with anything that comes in front of them, from men, to animals and finally children. The Westboro Baptist Church even runs an outlet called priestsrapeboys.com, which surprisingly, apart from the occasional bout of Protestant fanaticism, has a rhetoric which is cunningly similar to the hordes of anti-Catholic detractors around the world.

It is surprising, even, that the so-called "Free-Thought" organizations around the world are eager to join the fray and attack the Church with all their might, by threatening the Pope, or by similarly writing menacing heralds and running smear campaigns against Catholics across ever medium possible. It seems that, of all things in the world, the Catholic Church is the most watched, reprieved and denigrated of them - anything, any scandal is the excuse for massive attacks. I believe SigniferOne, our resident Protestant, has addressed this all too well in another thread, and how absurd this attitude is.

What he, and most people don't know however, is a singular and enlightening fact, which sheds light on the history of abuse by the Catholic clergy, and is not buzzed around so much, frankly, because it would compromise the fun and the credibility of the people whose whole lives are centered on attacking an organization which frankly, has no impact on their conduct and never shall, because no one is forced to follow it. Pure Skepticism is not content with being "free", it has to detract its religious roots all the time for its own sake.

That fact, which DOES NOT come from the mouth of the Catholic Clergy (who has been too busy prostrating itself and blaming demons), but from research and statistical data afforded by none but several sources, many of them without a single shred of Catholic sympathy.

Philip Jenkins, as explained by a Libertarian source, has found an incommensurable fact: Protestant Churches MORE Likely to be Home to Pedophiles. This very same source debates a piece of news, from another source, which delves right into data to clarify that "Insurance Companies Shed Light on Extent of Sex Abuse in Protestant Churches", providing raw data that the number of denunciations made against Protestant clergy, yearly, ever since the beginning of such records, is LARGER than the whole of the Catholic Church combined.

So much for "Celibacy and Corruption" being a "cause" of pedophilia, right? Where's Dawkins and the whole crowd to argue that Protestant Leaders should be arrested? OH, wait! It's not the Evil Old Catholic Church, so it's not fun attacking! *Waves hand in dismissal*

Philip Jenkins himself has written to a Philadelphia news outlet, in the wake of the Boston scandal in 2002, to argue about it. Let's check what he has to say:

http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/co...edjenk03p6.asp

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[...]

We have often heard the phrase "pedophile priest" in recent weeks. Such individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.

However much this statement contradicts conventional wisdom, the "pedophile priest" is not a Catholic specialty. Yet when did we ever hear about "pedophile pastors"? [...]

That's masterful! In fact, those with a sharp intuition might detect already the Hidden Agenda (TM) of the Media behind it; as we live in a society where sexual prowess is glorified, promiscuity is openly advocated and normal, and does not like any contradictions to its own Canon of "Sexual Liberty", it is very interesting to twist the history of sexual abuses inside the Catholic Church, specifically, because the Catholic Church practices celibacy. While all those lovely Anglican pedophiles, they can marry, and they can even marry a member of the same sex! So it's not that they are really "evil", notwithstanding the facts.

Finally, as if Protestantism were not enough, let us look at another religion that allows its clergy to marry: Judaism. Yes... Don't tell your friendly "free-thinking" or Protestant worshiping neighbor about this, but there have been many dire abuse scandals involving Hasidic Jews in the past. I could search and search, but since this post has reached too large a length for here, I'll stop by. Now, I am very confidently assured that the Celibacy is evil, the Catholic Church is an evil paedophile ring, and that Oliver Cromwell and certain figures here should NOT hold their hands together in genuine Anglo-Saxon anti-"Catholick" prayer and hate .

Edit - And a final disclaimer, I am not a Catholic. It is just, that living in a majority Catholic country, tired old anti-Catholic rants are easy to come by .

[Gaidin]

So much for "Celibacy and Corruption" being a "cause" of pedophilia, right? Where's Dawkins and the whole crowd to argue that Protestant Leaders should be arrested? OH, wait! It's not the Evil Old Catholic Church, so it's not fun attacking! *Waves hand in dismissal*

It's not really the fact that the protestant churches are more likely to have pedos. It's the fact that catholic priests have been caught red handed(so to speak) in the act and have been protected by the church. There's a difference.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

It's not really the fact that the protestant churches are more likely to have pedos. It's the fact that catholic priests have been caught red handed(so to speak) in the act and have been protected by the church. There's a difference.

Cover up by religious organizations isn't anything new, you know. The very source I posted about Hasidic Jews insinuates there's lots of cover up happening, and the more closed an institution is, the more cover ups there will be, naturally. Who knows what happens in Saudi Arabia, where the ulema has the power of the law behind it, or among the more fanatical protestant sects?

While the concern for cover up is genuine, where it is applied is often a matter of choice - by big media outlets, and by "public attention", which is completely arbitrary. There's no serious evidence to regard the Catholic Church as any worse than other religious organizations in this regard.

[Gaidin]

Cover up by religious organizations isn't anything new, you know. The very source I posted about Hasidic Jews insinuates there's lots of cover up happening, and the more closed an institution is, the more cover ups there will be, naturally. Who knows what happens in Saudi Arabia, where the ulema has the power of the law behind it, or among the more fanatical protestant sects?

So because we have no thread about the Hasidic jews covering up their crimes means we're hypocritical for getting angry at the RCC for covering up their crimes? Please.

Once more the question comes up. What does one group's crime have to do with another?

While the concern for cover up is genuine, where it is applied is often a matter of choice - by big media outlets, and by "public attention", which is completely arbitrary. There's no serious evidence to regard the Catholic Church as any worse than other religious organizations in this regard.

So we should just leave them alone? If you'd like to talk about what other groups do, please by all means feel free to make threads about them and leave nuanced AND blatant references to the RCC out of it.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

So because we have no thread about the Hasidic jews covering up their crimes means we're hypocritical for getting angry at the RCC for covering up their crimes? Please.

I'm not arguing this. I made this thread merely to dispel the recent Anti-Catholic frenzy - while you may feel yourself in the right to hate the Church for it, there's no reason for a)the whole extra fuzz only Catholics have been getting, b)to think Catholics are any different from anyone else in this regard.

[Gaidin]

I'm not arguing this. I made this thread merely to dispel the recent Anti-Catholic frenzy - while you may feel yourself in the right to hate the Church for it, there's no reason for a)the whole extra fuzz only Catholics have been getting, b)to think Catholics are any different from anyone else in this regard.

Except we aren't the ones that think the Catholics are overly special in this regard. We get accused of it because someone else brings up other groups' actions as a red herring in a discussion about the, wait for it....CATHOLICS....and we tell them that that's off topic and to go make a case about that group in another discussion.

It gets old.

[Scorch]

I'm not arguing this. I made this thread merely to dispel the recent Anti-Catholic frenzy - while you may feel yourself in the right to hate the Church for it, there's no reason for a)the whole extra fuzz only Catholics have been getting, b)to think Catholics are any different from anyone else in this regard.

I think that the Catholic Church's rigid, highly-organised hierarchical nature exacerbates this in several ways.

It results in a far more socially visible symbol for criticism, where, as some have pointed out, the other major religious players in such matters are much more separately-organised, without an overarching body to draw criticism.

It also means that, with regards to the subject of cover ups, there is an entirely different mood to it, in a sense. In a less globally-organised and rigidly-structured organisation, authority is not gathered in one place. There is no unified leader of the entire Protestant faith, for example, and almost every denomination of Protestantism is then divided into different entities; power is concentrated on a more localized level. Thus, when such crimes are committed, there is less of an overarching political influence preventing appropriate action, and cover ups are genuinely localized and not as systematic.

The Catholic Church, however, has a proclaimed leader, to which the entirety of the Catholic Church answers. It has a strict, organized hierarchy, complete with chains of command and extensive methods of communication throughout those chains of command. When such crimes are committed, then, we see the influence of the very fact that the Vatican, as the head of the Church, is absolutely a political body as well, thus is leverages a much more overtly political kind of pressure in such situations. It is also rigidly organised, which results in more systematic approaches to such cover ups. Granted, it would be absurd to say that every case of child abuse that was covered up by the Catholic Church was done so with the knowledge and approval of the Pope, or the higher echelons of Vatican leadership, yet it is clear that quite a number of them have been, and this is the thing that most people find more problematic with the Catholic Church, and thus why it draws a considerable amount of criticism in such cases.

[Arch-hereticK]

Do secularists hate the catholic church? I don't think so.
Do even minded people hate pedophiles and their enablers? Yes they should.
Has this whole thing been blown out of proportion? Yes it has.

Much of my anger in this matter is due to the silence of the good catholics and the mindlessly obedient catholics actually defending the criminals and how the church handled. Some vocal outrage by catholics would certainly cure much of the damage done to the church's reputation.

[DekuTrash]

Some vocal outrage by catholics would certainly cure much of the damage done to the church's reputation.

The Church needs this now more than ever.

[Hilarion]

Well yes, the main and rightful criticism of the Church concerns their handling of the issue.

[hellheaven1987]

I think my problem is that why Catholic priests, despite sexually oppressed, have to turn their desire on little children??

[C-Rob]

Do secularists hate the catholic church? I don't think so.
Do even minded people hate pedophiles and their enablers? Yes they should.
Has this whole thing been blown out of proportion? Yes it has.

Much of my anger in this matter is due to the silence of the good catholics and the mindlessly obedient catholics actually defending the criminals and how the church handled. Some vocal outrage by catholics would certainly cure much of the damage done to the church's reputation.

Most of theme don't care enough though. hell, they might go to church once or twice a year.

[gambit]

Wonderful OP, this has opened my eyes completely. Oh we were so blind in our ignorance, simply flocking to the call like that! Of course all our reasoning against the church has absolutely no foundation whatsoever, us "free thinkers" are merely children running around in our own hate-crap, just looking for excuses to attack the church because we're not religious and, therefore, we hate all religious institutions with fervor.

Why, after this, I was hoping we could venture down to the Middle East, call all Muslims hate mongers and start us a good ol fashioned belief war

[Prodigal]

Notice the fact that nothing is mentioned about the Orthodox.

[Fiyenyaa]

Notice the fact that nothing is mentioned about the Orthodox.

Orthdoxy has it's own problems. As far as we know, much less horrendous ones - but there are problems nonetheless.
Chief amongst them would be the huge belief in superstition to the point where people think you need a special prayer (or even exorcism) to remove the "evil eye", or curses. Crazy. And can lead to situations like this when evil men become priests. Thankfully no-one in authority tried to cover the problem, as far as we know.

[cfmonkey45]

Orthdoxy has it's own problems. As far as we know, much less horrendous ones - but there are problems nonetheless.
Chief amongst them would be the huge belief in superstition to the point where people think you need a special prayer (or even exorcism) to remove the "evil eye", or curses. Crazy. And can lead to situations like this when evil men become priests. Thankfully no-one in authority tried to cover the problem, as far as we know.

Those men were laymen, and the evil eye is a cultural superstition native to most near eastern and mediterranean peoples. Although it is horrific, its hardly the fault of the Orthodox Church.




Moreover, I don't think that sex abuse is inherently a religious problem, nor sectarian. It's obviously universal, and obviously going to be more present amongst the largest. Nevertheless, I doubt that Protestants are more evil than Catholics because some falliable statistics say that appointed paedophiles rape a smidge more than the other. What protestants have going for them is that they can, and do, discipline their priests. Its horrific, yes, when an adult abuses a child sexually. That's one thing, and its not the fault of any institution for having that occur. The vast issue with the Catholic Church, however, is that rather than defrocking them, or at the very least keeping them from children, they've moved them around so that they can abuse hundreds more children. Furthermore, the Catholic Church extradites some of its priests to the Vatican, which has diplomatic immunity, completely protecting them from any and all prosecution.

Even if it is blown out of proportion, it's absolutely disgusting.

[Fiyenyaa]

Those men were laymen, and the evil eye is a cultural superstition native to most near eastern and mediterranean peoples. Although it is horrific, its hardly the fault of the Orthodox Church.

I absolutely agree: the problem is the belief in superstition.

Moreover, I don't think that sex abuse is inherently a religious problem, nor sectarian. It's obviously universal, and obviously going to be more present amongst the largest. Nevertheless, I doubt that Protestants are more evil than Catholics because some falliable statistics say that appointed paedophiles rape a smidge more than the other. What protestants have going for them is that they can, and do, discipline their priests. Its horrific, yes, when an adult abuses a child sexually. That's one thing, and its not the fault of any institution for having that occur. The vast issue with the Catholic Church, however, is that rather than defrocking them, or at the very least keeping them from children, they've moved them around so that they can abuse hundreds more children. Furthermore, the Catholic Church extradites some of its priests to the Vatican, which has diplomatic immunity, completely protecting them from any and all prosecution.

Even if it is blown out of proportion, it's absolutely disgusting.

Again, agreed. I don't think there are any serious criticism of the Catholic Church for having child-rapists within it's ranks: any sufficiently large group of people will include some merely through statistics. The problem is that the leadership of the Church thinks that the Church's reputation is more important that justice.

[Arch-hereticK]

Again, agreed. I don't think there are any serious criticism of the Catholic Church for having child-rapists within it's ranks: any sufficiently large group of people will include some merely through statistics. The problem is that the leadership of the Church thinks that the Church's reputation is more important that justice.

Yeah, it's funny how the vocal catholic-philes ignore the actual problem and instead invent some sort of caricature, as if the accusations were absurd. That on it's own is destroying more of the church's reputation than the pedophiles and the official cover-up combined.

[basics]

" Philip Jenkins, as explained by a Libertarian source, has found an incommensurable fact: Protestant Churches MORE Likely to be Home to Pedophiles. This very same source debates a piece of news, from another source, which delves right into data to clarify that "Insurance Companies Shed Light on Extent of Sex Abuse in Protestant Churches", providing raw data that the number of denunciations made against Protestant clergy, yearly, ever since the beginning of such records, is LARGER than the whole of the Catholic Church combined."

Louis XI,

I've probably been in more churches than you've had hot breakfasts and I have never ever been associated with one that has any incidents like this. But then most of them were churches of born again Christians, the only church that is established by the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. So whatever Protestant systems your sources are of they obviously are only religious ones.

That said, it would be unwise to say that all who do go where born again Christians worship are all born again, because some quite obviously are not, but as I said I have never heard of one incident in all them that I have been to. The one instance I can refer to was when one young guy got one of the females pregnant and then told her he was finished with her. Quite rightly the church had him in front of the congregation where he again repeated what he had told her. Needless to say he was put out of the church, neither showing concern nor remorse.

Now as far as the priesthood inside the Roman system is concerned when I ran a paper conversion plant one of my workers told me of how many of his friends being priests went to Majorca on holiday with the sole intention of bedding as many females as possible and when they returned they went into some sort of seminary to confess and repent. I can't corroborate all this but my worker assured me it was true.

I myself on going to soccer matches couldn't believe the state that these so-called men of God got into as the ones I saw had whisky bottles hanging out of their pockets as they entered the turnstyles at Parkhead. In those days they thought it their right to get in for nothing whilst their poor fellow Catholics had to pay, many of them looking as though they couldn't raise two pennies.

And this brings me to the theme of my point. It is quite clear that the Roman system has elevated men to the position of not being responsible but to their immediate superiors. In other words their congregations don't and can't get very far with any disputes no matter what they are if it involves carpeting one of the priesthood. And because this is their system, not what the Bible lays down, it is easy to cover things up.

So when sources say that Protestants are more likely to be seen as the worst, that is because no Protestant churches I know of have a system like Rome's. Abuses are not covered up even if some may have tried because what goes on in a Protestant church is the concern for the whole congregation. The community would be up in arms with nowhere for an offender to hide. Indeed, unless I am mistaken no minister, nor elder, nor deacon can be appointed but by the whole congregation, and if there were any misdeeds again the whole congregation would be informed.

[Viking Prince]

Each and every instance of pediophilia is wrong and needs to have consequences. For each official that hides such acts to prevent the perpetrator from suffering consequences is also wrong. To argue that one organization has had more discovered instances than another is completely and utterly meaningless.