Something seems odd between Britain, France and Germany

[ssfsx17]

Britain and France historically had a lot of conflicts between each other, at first because of claims to the throne, but later, it seems like they just really didn't like each other at all, no matter what type of government they had or who was king/queen of either country.

Britain and Germany+Holland, on the other hand, seem to have a more positive history between them. At least, for as long as the concepts of Holland and Germany have been around. All the British kings/queens from the 1700's onward seem to be either Dutch or German.

Yet, in World Wars 1 and 2, Britain was allied with France against Germany. After World War 2, Britain and (West) Germany ended up in the same orbit again, whereas France left NATO command.

So, how did the alliances of the World Wars happen?

[Hattushilish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entente_cordiale

[ssfsx17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entente_cordiale

What I want to know is: how did Britain and France get to the point where they could sign that sort of agreement? It didn't seem like all that long ago that Britain had reinstalled a king into France, only to end up with a few undesired regime changes. Why didn't Britain consider an alliance with the Kaiser instead?

[Dr. Croccer]

What I want to know is: how did Britain and France get to the point where they could sign that sort of agreement? It didn't seem like all that long ago that Britain had reinstalled a king into France, only to end up with a few undesired regime changes. Why didn't Britain consider an alliance with the Kaiser instead?

Because Germany became a bigger threat than France.

[Hattushilish]

What I want to know is: how did Britain and France get to the point where they could sign that sort of agreement? It didn't seem like all that long ago that Britain had reinstalled a king into France, only to end up with a few undesired regime changes. Why didn't Britain consider an alliance with the Kaiser instead?

Well I'm giving an oversimplified explanation but Africa had a lot to do with it... the British wanted to control a corridor in Africa that stretched from Egypt all the way to South Africa and build a railroad through it, but as you can see the Germans got in their way:

And of course Germany and France had been unfriendly for a long time. British and French interests in Africa weren't really in direct competition with each other, so Britain agreed to leave West Africa alone and the French agreed to leave East Africa alone.

Also, there was the conflict between Russia and Japan. France and Russia were allies, and Britain was Japan's ally, but neither France nor Britain really wanted any part of a war between Russia and Japan, who had escalating tensions. The entente gave Britain and France a convenient excuse for avoiding entanglement the Russia/Japan conflict.

It was more a marriage of convenience than anything else at the beginning, and over time it became a stronger relationship.

[torongill]

Common Enemy after WW2 - The Russkies. The French have never like being under someone else's command.

[René Artois]

Common enemy: the Germans. Britain usually got sucked in because of treaties with Belgium, Germany usually started it because of having a militaristic nutter in charge, and France was just in an unfortunate position geographically- no sea to protect them from the nutters.

[Farnan]

Exactly, Real Politik.

France was once the greatest threat, but then Germany became the bigger threat so France and the UK allied.

[Dr. Croccer]

Exactly, Real Politik.

France was once the greatest threat, but then Germany became the bigger threat so France and the UK allied.

Basically. Germany overtook Britain in industrial output and military strenght, was trying to in terms of naval power and it was trying to create it's own global empire. The Brits were naturally spooked. There were attempts to foster a more united German-British diplomacy, but during that time there was a lot of anti-German hysteria as well. Dystopian stories featuring the Germans invading Britain were very popular.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Britain and Germany+Holland, on the other hand, seem to have a more positive history between them.

Britain and The Netherlands fought three very brutal wars.

So, how did the alliances of the World Wars happen?

Germany threatened British interests, and France did not. The alliance between France and Britain was kicked off by the francophile King Edward, my favourite King, if you're interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_...e_of_Europe.22

[René Artois]

Britain and The Netherlands fought three very brutal wars.

After which we put the Dutch king on the throne.

[Hattushilish]

(this Yank will defer to the Bloody Good Chap Ferrets on British history, as he probably knows more than I do)

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well I'd disagree with the relevence of your African suggestion. By contrast on the eve of the first World War Britain was courting good relations with Germany. Britain had no need for the very limited Germany colonies, and its rule of the sea as well as the Seuz Canal meant a land route across Africa was not an overwhelming desire.

Being friends with France made excellent sense for Britain at the dawn of the 20th century. It had already been cooperating with France in several projects. China, the Seuz again, for example. There was however anglophobic sentiment in France, very similar to the kind you may get against America today. World police, etc. King Bertie sorted that out, and built the alliance that continues to this day.

[pannonian]

Well I'd disagree with the relevence of your African suggestion. By contrast on the eve of the first World War Britain was courting good relations with Germany. Britain had no need for the very limited Germany colonies, and its rule of the sea as well as the Seuz Canal meant a land route across Africa was not an overwhelming desire.

Being friends with France made excellent sense for Britain at the dawn of the 20th century. It had already been cooperating with France in several projects. China, the Seuz again, for example. There was however anglophobic sentiment in France, very similar to the kind you may get against America today. World police, etc. King Bertie sorted that out, and built the alliance that continues to this day.

AFAICS British policy centred around control of waterways rather than land routes. Hence Gibraltar, Malta, Suez, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. There were more than enough coaling stations dotted around the oceans that British ships could go anywhere it liked without clashing with other Great Powers' interests. Cyprus could be deemed an important addition according to this policy, but even that was greeted with queries of why Britain was annexing yet another bit of land when we already had so much.

[Trax]

England's enemy on the continent is always the most powerful country on the continent.
When it was France it was France, when it was Germany then it was Germany. Simple.

[Norge]

That holds true for pretty much every European power. France also played smaller European states against each other, so did Spain, so did Austria, so did Prussia, so did Russia. It's not like an united Europe has been some sort of ancient goal for continental Europeans.

Britain's policy in Europe is hardly unique.

[Dr. Croccer]

That holds true for pretty much every European power. France also played smaller European states against each other, so did Spain, so did Austria, so did Prussia, so did Russia. It's not like an united Europe has been some sort of ancient goal for continental Europeans.

Britain's policy in Europe is hardly unique.

This. Germany's policy under Bismarck was based on dividing Europe. The Germans isolated France and neutralized Russia and Austria by allying with Austria, preventing conflict from happening in the Balcans, as Russia wouldn't dare to attack both countries, and Austria was at the same time fully aware that the alliance was basically a leash meant to restrain Austria. Germany played Britain and France against eachother in Africa, and get Britain to basically hand Zanzibar and East Africa to Germany, wasting decades of valuable diplomatic work the Brits did on the slave state.

Having a plan of invasion that included Belgium (and Schlieffen Plan was the corner stone of German plans on Western Front) meant automatically Germany was aware that would fight the British also.

They assumed that the Brits wouldn't intervene, which wasn't entirely silly. When war was declared Kitchener stated: ''You can't say that my collegues in Parliament aren't brave: they have no army yet they just declared war on the state with the biggest army in the world.''

And they assumed that they would be in Paris before the Brits were able to make a difference, and that their navy would be enough to hold them off untill they finished Russia off. Not entirely stupid assumptions either.

And, as konny stated, Wilhelm II's own emotions and assumption were a large factor as well.

Was the Kaiser the only one who decided foreign policy?

After Bismarck left, de facto, yes. The Kaiser was a absolute monarch in matters that mattered to him. Things he didn't care about he left for the government to deal with. The Reichstag wasn't entirely impotent but if the Kaiser expressed a desire in something, his will was law.

I'm not knocking Britain for that though... I'm sure Japan felt the same way about it.

Japan used it as a license to go on an imperialistic spree. During WWI they gobbled up German pacific territories, much to the dislike of the Americans.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I've seen that dozens of times and still laugh.

[Hattushilish]

I've seen that dozens of times and still laugh.

There was always method to the madness!

With the British Empire, it's so hard to tell if a particular policy was pursued as a means to an end or as an end in itself.

But American policy during the Cold War was similar. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend, until he becomes my enemy."

[removeduser_487563287433]

That's a simplification. The alliance with France could have not happened quite easily, and before King Edward's efforts relations were not good. As I said, Britain was also trying very hard to improve relations with Germany - a special naval diplomatic delegation was in German port when Franz Ferdinand was murdered. Nobody wanted the Great War. It's just nobody had the sense to stop it.