Pyrrhus's army formations against the Roman Legions ?

[TTRouble]

" Pyrrhus countered the Roman legions by using a mixed phalanx formation of pikemen, spearmen and elephants, an array that proved successful in all battles against them, regardless his "more than average" losses. A most competent tactician indeed, his decisions were influenced by the composition of his army, which included many untrustworthy troops from Magna Graecia"

Does any one know how Pyrrhus organised his units against the Roman legions ? I'm curious to know how he setup his mix of phalanx, skirmishers, spearmen etc as there doesn;t seem to be any real references and if those are worth trying in RS, esp against the Romans!

[Binshuy]

a flaking maneuver in the sides or rear pretty much ends a battle

[pcaravel]

I'm quoting a passage from Robert E. Gaebel's book "Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World", referring to the battle of Heraclea:

One may well ask why there were so many casualties on Pyrrhus’ side in a battle of phalanx and legion in which there is no evidence that the phalanx was exposed to attack upon flank or rear. In a head-on contest, the long sarissas of the phalanx, extending several rows in front of the first rank, effectively countered both the Roman javelin and the short sword. Such an advantage should have resulted in a more one-sided victory and fewer casualties for Pyrrhus. If there is an answer to this question it may come from Polybius, who informs us that Pyrrhus “employed not only Italian arms but also Italian forces, placing cohorts of these and cohorts composed of men from the phalanx in alternate order in his battles with the Romans.” Assuming this to be true, it is not easy to suggest Pyrrhus’ reasons for doing so, for by adopting Italian arms and formations he reduced the advantage inherent in his phalanx. Unless this was a concession to the terrain it appears to have been a mistake, since he had three thousand cavalry and twenty elephants with which to protect his flanks the recognized weakness in the phalanx. Although Pyrrhus was the most famous general of his day, perhaps this adaptation was simply a mistake.

[Spartan 666]

Battle of Asculum
Battle of Heraclea
Battle of Maleventum (renamed Beneventum after the roman victory)

You can also make a google search for more specific descriptions but these references can give an overall idea on how the Epirote army was deployed.

[Binshuy]

the roman legions take pride in their flexibility and speed, try outdoing them and pin them down

[Vardan the Great]

I think to crush the best legion there must be the best phalang.

[Spartan 666]

well obviously you can't beat an elite legion with a levy phalanx! If you manage to do that then the roman commander is a real noob!

[Vardan the Great]

not levy but heavy,elite,etc...!

[SimpleCourage47]

Might not be able to beat the better legions with a levy phalanx but if you use them correctly you can inflict high casualties and hold them long enough for your better troops to do their job.

[tryadelion]

okay. here you have mine:

1:
i put my heavy phalanx in a line. not all, just half of them, with skirmisthers on the back with guard the position. after the skirmisther, i put the spearman. the other phalanx are on the flanks withotu formation, so they can run.
the battle starts:

me:
________ hoplites
|=====| skirmisthers and flanking phalanx
------- phalanx

rome:
===== legionaries
______ skirmisthers
| | | cavalry


so they charge... follow it.
|======|
--------
=======
________

when they are vs my phalanx, i set fire at will the skirmisthers, so they make damage to the romans and some of them rout after the end of ammo.
|======|
--------
=== =
________

now is where i put the phalanx on the sides, and make the hoplites charge infront of the phalanx.

---------
=======
________
| === =|
________

they advance and crush the romans from three sides.then the skirmishters are easy, and the cavalry is a mere question of spearmen.

YOU WIN!

[torzsoktamas]

[QUOTE=tryadelion;7171728]okay. here you have mine:

1:
i put my heavy phalanx in a line. not all, just half of them, with skirmisthers on the back with guard the position. after the skirmisther, i put the spearman. the other phalanx are on the flanks withotu formation, so they can run.
the battle starts:

me:
________ hoplites
|=====| skirmisthers and flanking phalanx
------- phalanx

rome:
===== legionaries
______ skirmisthers
| | | cavalry


so they charge... follow it.
|======|
--------
=======
________

when they are vs my phalanx, i set fire at will the skirmisthers, so they make damage to the romans and some of them rout after the end of ammo.
|======|
--------
=== =
________

now is where i put the phalanx on the sides, and make the hoplites charge infront of the phalanx.

---------
=======
________
| === =|
________

they advance and crush the romans from three sides.then the skirmishters are easy, and the cavalry is a mere question of spearmen.

Interesting,..but what you do with your main phalanx line?You advance with the hoplites,..behind the hoplites or front of the hoplites?

[OctavianIV]

Isn't the combination of roman skirmishers and cavalry going to do some damage to your (now) exposed phalanxes on the sides? Surely the roman skirmishers can run around the back of them and inflict significant casualties (not to mention cavalry charges in the rear).

Obviously you've used this tactic and it works, so I'm not dissing it, just wondering how you deal with the extra (and more flexible) roman auxiliaries.

[tryadelion]

because i fight their early units! with my fleet blockading their ports, and my alliance with syracuse, they are on bankrupt, so they don't have "money" for a palace.

in another point, i still have my skirmishers to support the hoplites, and charge their skirmishers. also, cavalry is very weak vs javelins.

[Binshuy]

hannibal style crescent shape lure them inside and fill the rear with cavalory that should stop any roman advance

[Vardan the Great]

To crush the heaviest legionaries is very easy!Just charge on the 1 unit of eastern cataphracts!

[tryadelion]

my phalanx waits. advances only a bit, in close formation with pikes in front. the hoplites are hidden in the back of the army, and in the middle there are the skirmishers. the enemy will charge at the center (mainly). what i do is center their attention, and then put the two or four extra phalanx (always elite) on the sides of the legion, and i make them advance, clear, advance , clear.... then the skirmishers starts opening fire, if i have archers with burning torches... then the hoplites (small spear or sword) move around my phalanx, prepared to strike the final clash to the roman armies. finally, the skirmishers charge to their (if they have), and i set to pursue everyone so the enemy units routed never get back. and ofcourse, my general chases the enemy light cavarly. (the heavy always suicides on my spears...

[General Brittanicus]

All you need to do is use a few units of militia hoplites/cheap units to absorb the majority of the roman missiles and then your phalanxes shouldnt have a problem.