More mercenary units

[Vaul]

The thing I liked about Stainless Steel is the wide variety of mercenaries that you could employ in various regions of the world... Now, I'm not sure about the lore base for this (but I'm even less sure why anyone would care), but I would like to see a more diverse mercenary "market" in TATW as well...

We know there are humans roaming about all over the place without strict allegiances, and Hobbit might provide a similar argument for the Dwarves...

The way I see it, mercenary type abundance would provide for a bridge between the 2 clashing arguments "lore is the bible" - "this is still a total war game". You want High elves to have pikes (they really could use more unit diversity) but mean old Tolkien is turning in his grave? Pike mercenaries in elven-produced armor perhaps? This is only a crude example for discussion purposes, the principle is what's important - if the mod developers have lore-based reservations about expanding the unit base for factions - I don't think anyone would mind if the expanded the mercenary base in any way imaginable.

So how about it? Anyone for this idea? Any practical ideas?

I know there are a lot of threads where people are suggesting all sorts of new units, many of them based on some form of concept art - but get frequently gunned down by the "lore" argument ("Tolkien never mentioned elven cavalry archers"). I propose a compromise, and I consider it to be a worthy addition to the mod, eventually - may it take a decade as far as I'm concerned

[Beorn]

I always wanted mercs for this mod...BTW, Tolkien DID mention Noldor Horse Archers

[athanaric]

So how about it? Anyone for this idea? Any practical ideas?

Yes. The good guys could use some local mercenaries in Harad or Rhûn. People there weren't inherently evil and it's very possible that some of them would have fought against Sauron, moreso if encouraged with money.

("Tolkien never mentioned elven cavalry archers").

He did. In the Silmarillion. So, bad example

[Beorn]

Yes. The good guys could use some local mercenaries in Harad or Rhûn. People there weren't inherently evil and it's very possible that some of them would have fought against Sauron, moreso if encouraged with money.


He did. In the Silmarillion. So, bad example

He did in HoME versions of Silmarillion too. So it's a good example

[Vaul]

He did. In the Silmarillion. So, bad example

Indeed, especially considering most elves can fire a bow with skill while changing their underpants... Ok, so high elven elephant cannoneers! Better?

for discussion purposes only, of course!

[Seleukos_I.]

Some dark elves would be good as ive seen no mention of them in this forumn yet, they are mentioned by tolkien (for evil factions) ?????

Elves did not fight for the Evil factions. Just because they are called "Dark Elves" does not mean that they are dark in their heart and mind, but that they didn't join the journey to the West.

I think in "the Hobbit" there is also a unit mentioned for the dwarves. For a journey they ride on ponys. It would be great when you can buy Dwarven ponyriders.
They should be slower and lesser equipped because there are not for battles, similar armoured as the "Rohan Scouts". So you haven't got the problem to catch the snagas.

As you said yourself, they are not for battles.

[Vaul]

Still, it stands to reason that the Dwarves would be able to employ hosts of human peasants for their purposes. Based on that assumption, and the fact that the Dwarves already trade heavily with men (as they both provide valuable resources for the other) - I would see no problem to expand the Dwarven mercenary roster with any medieval rabble unit already established as fitting for Middle Earth.

Same goes for any faction... Any low or medium tier unit (humans being the most suitable race) is welcome as a mercenary for any faction, diverse armies being the desired effect.


I have a question for lore experts out there (not that I'm ignorant myself, but it's been a while) - would orcs take human slaves (for instance) and march them as arrow fodder? Could some kind of mercenary unit be formed by such an eventuality? Abduction of children perhaps, transport them to Mordor and corrupt them slowly... Something like Sauron's janissaries

Theoretically, would that fit the orc mindset (or the mindset of their masters) in the late Third Age? I'm inclined to say yes, or rather - why not.

Just an example to illustrate the logic behind expanding the mercenary base of every faction, albeit slightly off course from established lore.

[JorisofHolland]

Still, it stands to reason that the Dwarves would be able to employ hosts of human peasants for their purposes. Based on that assumption, and the fact that the Dwarves already trade heavily with men (as they both provide valuable resources for the other) - I would see no problem to expand the Dwarven mercenary roster with any medieval rabble unit already established as fitting for Middle Earth.

Same goes for any faction... Any low or medium tier unit (humans being the most suitable race) is welcome as a mercenary for any faction, diverse armies being the desired effect.


I have a question for lore experts out there (not that I'm ignorant myself, but it's been a while) - would orcs take human slaves (for instance) and march them as arrow fodder? Could some kind of mercenary unit be formed by such an eventuality? Abduction of children perhaps, transport them to Mordor and corrupt them slowly... Something like Sauron's janissaries

Theoretically, would that fit the orc mindset (or the mindset of their masters) in the late Third Age? I'm inclined to say yes, or rather - why not.

Just an example to illustrate the logic behind expanding the mercenary base of every faction, albeit slightly off course from established lore.

I don't think the humans would just march and get shot. And other humans would probably not shoot them, unless they felt threatened. Elves would also probalby choose not to fire their arrows to them, and rather shoot the orc who forces them to keep walking.

[SinerAthin]

I'd LOVE mercenaries.

On campaigns I am constantly forced on some wild goose chase after the enemy as after I take a town, I MUST press deeper into their territory to avoid a total stack spam.

Main problem is that I can't reqruit new units in the settlements I capture, and even though I only suffer a dozen or so casualties for every stack I destroy, my forces are slowly whittled down and I am unable to replace them.

I have so much cash I just yearn to use but nowhere to spend them. Mercenaries, though more expensive than normal units, would be a wonderful addition.

OR

A replacement system similar to that of Empire: Total War, where you can refill units by simply marking them, paying and waiting a turn or two.
Damn, I really miss that one. It was the thing I liked the most about empire

[axnsan]

^

So you say the same thing that he does then you say it's a good example.

[optimuslouis]

I would also like some more mercs, if anyone with the knowledge, time and desire to make them decides too. I would prefer bigger unit rosters for (certain factions) first but how about

Dwarven wanderers a somewhat lighter armed yet still effective smaller sizewd axe unit available for good factions. lore accurate`ish ????

Some dark elves would be good as ive seen no mention of them in this forumn yet, they are mentioned by tolkien (for evil factions) ?????

maybe more ideas later will try and think of some more justifyable mercs

[Bund weicher Birnen]

I think in "the Hobbit" there is also a unit mentioned for the dwarves. For a journey they ride on ponys. It would be great when you can buy Dwarven ponyriders.
They should be slower and lesser equipped because there are not for battles, similar armoured as the "Rohan Scouts". So you haven't got the problem to catch the snagas.

[Ozzmosis]

Eol was a dark elf but he wasn't necessarily evil and definitely never collaborated with Morgoth.

[Ozzmosis]

why would orcs need arrow fodder when orcs are arrow fodder for the bigger orcs and trolls etc?

[Vaul]

why would orcs need arrow fodder when orcs are arrow fodder for the bigger orcs and trolls etc?

-movie reference alert-

we can see several classes of orcs that exhibit higher forms of intelligence in terms of keeping their troops from harm (albeit through enforcing some sort of professional behavior), and then there's that scene when the pirate ships arrive, the orc officer is clearly gratified that the humans have arrived, as his orcs were getting hammered by the rohan cavalry...

This goes to show the mind set of the higher echelons of orc hierarchy (which seems to correspond to their intelligence levels lol) - they appreciate the involvement of foreign troops on their side, for whatever reason (arrow fodder was an example)

NOTE: I consider the movies to be an equal source of lore for the TATW mod, as is evident from every single screenshot

[Seleukos_I.]

-movie reference alert-

we can see several classes of orcs that exhibit higher forms of intelligence in terms of keeping their troops from harm (albeit through enforcing some sort of professional behavior), and then there's that scene when the pirate ships arrive, the orc officer is clearly gratified that the humans have arrived, as his orcs were getting hammered by the rohan cavalry...

You can already recruit human mercs as Mordor when on an invasion, so they cover exactly that purpose.

[Vaul]

You can already recruit human mercs as Mordor when on an invasion, so they cover exactly that purpose.

How nice of you to point that out. Let's get back to the thread, shall we... MORE MERCENARIES please!

but orcs are not the focus of this thread anyway, orcs are vast legions rabble and we all like them that way I'm more oriented towards the good factions and on improving their diversity... Although Gondor and Rohan are pretty diverse as it is... I'm a bit fed up with Haradrim armies in the first 50-80 turns, would be nice to see some slaves serving under the serpents banner (provided they're not already slaves, but you get my drift)

[SinerAthin]

As on the topic of meatshields...

The ruthless Mongols were pretty infamous for using women and children as cannon fodder/meatshields, as many soldiers back in the medieval ages weren't specifically conditioned for killing, they usually had problems firing their arrows in fear of hitting the innocents(they didn't have snipers), some were outright disgusted and the mongols managed to even prevent the enemy from firing at all at times.


If you ask for my opinion, I'd LOVE meatshields like that when playing elves.

All those million souls that I conquer yet no use for them at all ;/

[krasni]

I think high elves should be able to recruit elven mercs in silvan elf lands and vice versa. This would help all those times when I'm playing high elves and bailing out my incompetent forest brethren.

[Beregond]

I think high elves should be able to recruit elven mercs in silvan elf lands and vice versa. This would help all those times when I'm playing high elves and bailing out my incompetent forest brethren.

good point!


also, I'd be happy if the mercenaries represent some 'unique' units, not just plain variations of existing ones

Beornings are the good example of such mercenaries.

Others can be Lossoth of Forochel (javellins or spears) and Wild Men Drúadan Forest (javellins or bows) for good factions; and Nurn Slaves and probably some wild wolves (in the North) for evil.