bronze vs iron

[wupwup]

just read that bronze is actualy stronger for making weapons with. so why did armies change to using iron? and why did i (and many others i hope) think it was superior? thanks

[Viking Prince]

Iron is cheap and easy. To outfit an army -- money, time, and expertise matters. For the same reason that the USA did not strive to make the best tank for WWII -- just make more that are cheaper.

[Sphere]

just read that bronze is actualy stronger for making weapons with. so why did armies change to using iron? and why did i (and many others i hope) think it was superior? thanks

Bronze is a complicated alloy of two relatively (for the time) rare elements; copper and tin. It took organized trade and highly skilled craftsmen to create a suitable bronze for weapons and armor. The properties of bronze actually vary quite widely.

Iron in contrast is actually quite plentiful once a way of refining iron oxide is developed, and creating alloys with carbon can be done through various means, and actually is almost unavoidable in a forge buring wood or coal. But again iron and its alloys vary in properties quite widely so its not really accurate to make a sweeping generalization comparing the strengths of bronze and iron.

In short, you can produce arms and armor in large quantities using iron, and over time the techniques of refining steel allows far higher strengths than can be achieved in bronze.

[DAVIDE]

Tin was findable not only thru Cassiterite variant... btw in Bronze Age axes we have found, values of tin vary between 9,3 and 10,8%. With values superior to 13% of tin, bronze becomes so hard it is very very very difficult to be modelled by hand or tool

[wowbanger]

Bronze is harder, and therefore better for weapons, than wrought iron. Steel is better than both of them, however, about the same weight as bronze but stronger. therefore when man developed the techniques to produce steel, high temperature smelting etc, more and more weapons and tools began to be produced in steel.

Additionally wrought iron was far cheaper than bronze, for some unknown reason tin became scarce in the Levant around 1800BC. This was worsened by trade disruptions caused by the Bronze Age Collapse in the 12th Century BC. Therefore, people started using iron for more day to day things resulting in the Iron Age.

[A Demented Goldfish]

The greeks used broze wepons and shields because they could, britain and the rest of eourope couldn't, simple as.

[DAVIDE]

All the civilizations of Europe forged bronze equipment, from Pictish till Egyptians

[Mangalore]

just read that bronze is actualy stronger for making weapons with. so why did armies change to using iron? and why did i (and many others i hope) think it was superior? thanks

Stronger based on what? If I remember correctly the first thing iron producers did was to replace their weapons with iron while keeping bronze for armor because iron was harder => better in spear points and swords. Lateron replacing the bronze armor. I assumed this is because bronze is easier to shape => easier to bend and thus less useful in a weapon but better for formfitting armor and helmet. Obviously material might play a role and bronze in armor - and armor overall - was not as widespread than some kind of weapon, be it spear or sword.

Overall there seems a large overlap (> 1000 years?) where both types of metals were used side by side for specific purposes, equipment, weapons and tools. In the end in the military arena iron and steel replaced bronze so the claim it is somehow stronger might only hold true for a specific time frame given that various conflicts attributed military superiority to the possession of iron weapons (and that not in the sense that one side had more weapons).

[DAVIDE]

Vickers hardness

[removeduser_487563287433]

just read that bronze is actualy stronger for making weapons with. so why did armies change to using iron? and why did i (and many others i hope) think it was superior? thanks

Bronze is exceptionally hard to make when you factor in the logistics of the operation. One theory for iron replacing bronze in the Middle East is that the trade routes collapsed from Central Asia and Britain, which led to an unreliable supply of tin. Iron is everywhere, and people already used it to make metal items from meteorites.

The greeks used broze wepons and shields because they could, britain and the rest of eourope couldn't, simple as.

Absolute nonsense, God knows where you got this idea from, Britain has some of the oldest tin and copper mines in the world and bronze production appears between 2750 and 2000 BC. As for Greece, it was far from the first nor the only culture to use bronze. Like pretty much all truly ancient technology, bronze working first appeared in the Middle East.

[DAVIDE]

Bronze is exceptionally hard to make when you factor in the logistics of the operation. One theory for iron replacing bronze in the Middle East is that the trade routes collapsed from Central Asia and Britain, which led to an unreliable supply of tin. Iron is everywhere, and people already used it to make metal items from meteorites.

It is correct but we've to say also that tin was present everywhere too.. Spain, Sardinia, Portugal, Baviera, England, Egypt etc. etc... but in incredibly small % quantity than iron. Romans for example, especially from Caesar's era, found a way to replace tin within bronze simply mixing fuse copper with zinc creating the orichalcum

[removeduser_487563287433]

It is correct but we've to say also that tin was present everywhere too.. Spain, Sardinia, Portugal, Baviera, England, Egypt etc. etc... but in incredibly small % quantity than iron. Romans for example, especially from Caesar's era, found a way to replace tin within bronze simply mixing fuse copper with zinc creating the orichalcum

Yup, but the Middle Eastern civilisations relied on their Central Asian and Meditterean trade routes. Obviously, whatever caused the bronze age collapse of 1200BC would have also caused these trade routes to cease to function.

[Starlightman]

Absolute nonsense, God knows where you got this idea from, Britain has some of the oldest tin and copper mines in the world and bronze production appears between 2750 and 2000 BC. As for Greece, it was far from the first nor the only culture to use bronze.
Like pretty much all truly ancient technology, bronze working first appeared in the Middle East.

Ancient Greeks were among the first people to have traded their nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle for the sedentary farming ways about eight millennia ago. During the prehistoric times, which lasted until about 4,000 years ago, they constantly developed, as manufacture and trade reached unparalleled greatness in their civilization. A reminder of their warfare abilities has recently been uncovered close to the modern city of Mesi, in the northern region of Greece.

Greek authorities announce that a large treasure of some 4.500 year old copper weapons (actually, the largest of this type found so far) has recently been recovered from the coastal regions in the north, by the city of Mesi. The place is situated approximately 800 kilometers (500 miles) to the northeast of the capital Athens, where the pieces of weaponry were buried at a depth of about 3.2 meters (10.5 feet) below the sandy surface.

A later statement issued by the Greek Ministry of Culture indicates that the discovered hoard is comprised of at least 110 bronze hammer and ax heads, and that it is expected more will be detached from the twisted compact mass of rusted metal. At the time these were buried, they must have represented quite a fortune, and it is still a mystery why they were deposited that way.

Further investigations could tell us more about their origin and purpose, especially considering that, although buried by the beach, no remains of a shipwreck have been discovered yet, according to the statement. Current suppositions suggest that they were placed beneath the sands in a period of unrest or even war, and that perhaps sea levels were not as high at the time as they are today. It is believed that the location was just a regular coastal region that was only subsequently covered by floods caused by the increased sea levels.

http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/H...found-20081211

Prehistoric necropolis found in Greece

A 7,300-year-old home

The depiction shows details of bronze ribbon diadems and bronze and gold hair ornaments, bead necklaces of stone, bronze or shell, iron, ivory or leather belts decorated with bronze, a wide variety of bracelets and bronze rings for the middle or ring finger. Men's graves show that residents of this town did not bear arms, as only a few weapons were found in the graves.
Inhabited from 6000 BCE to 3100 BCE in the region of Amyntaio, a Neolithic settlement has given up hundreds of findings. Part of a timber floor measuring 5 square meters and in excellent condition is unique in Greece and the Balkans. A large number of objects indicate the economic activity, eating habits and daily activities of the inhabitants and include weaving looms, ceramic pots, 53 clay figurines, 25 small figures of humans and animals, a large number of jewelry items and charred remnants of plants (wheat, lentils, pomegranates and fruit seeds) which have been preserved for 7,300 years.

http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/002294.html


and Tom...

The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean

Trustees of Dartmouth College

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/histo...age/index.html


The treasures of the Aegean
Archaeological activity on 80 islands documented in a new publication

“There is evidence that before the legendary expulsion of the islanders by the legendary iron-eating mice and before it became a place of exile and suffering that there was another world on the island.”

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/ne....asp?aid=65728

[removeduser_487563287433]

Ancient Greeks were among the first people to have traded their nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle for the sedentary farming ways about eight millennia ago. During the prehistoric times, which lasted until about 4,000 years ago, they constantly developed, as manufacture and trade reached unparalleled greatness in their civilization. A reminder of their warfare abilities has recently been uncovered close to the modern city of Mesi, in the northern region of Greece.

Greek authorities announce that a large treasure of some 4.500 year old copper weapons (actually, the largest of this type found so far) has recently been recovered from the coastal regions in the north, by the city of Mesi. The place is situated approximately 800 kilometers (500 miles) to the northeast of the capital Athens, where the pieces of weaponry were buried at a depth of about 3.2 meters (10.5 feet) below the sandy surface.

A later statement issued by the Greek Ministry of Culture indicates that the discovered hoard is comprised of at least 110 bronze hammer and ax heads, and that it is expected more will be detached from the twisted compact mass of rusted metal. At the time these were buried, they must have represented quite a fortune, and it is still a mystery why they were deposited that way.

Further investigations could tell us more about their origin and purpose, especially considering that, although buried by the beach, no remains of a shipwreck have been discovered yet, according to the statement. Current suppositions suggest that they were placed beneath the sands in a period of unrest or even war, and that perhaps sea levels were not as high at the time as they are today. It is believed that the location was just a regular coastal region that was only subsequently covered by floods caused by the increased sea levels.

http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/H...found-20081211

Prehistoric necropolis found in Greece

A 7,300-year-old home

The depiction shows details of bronze ribbon diadems and bronze and gold hair ornaments, bead necklaces of stone, bronze or shell, iron, ivory or leather belts decorated with bronze, a wide variety of bracelets and bronze rings for the middle or ring finger. Men's graves show that residents of this town did not bear arms, as only a few weapons were found in the graves.
Inhabited from 6000 BCE to 3100 BCE in the region of Amyntaio, a Neolithic settlement has given up hundreds of findings. Part of a timber floor measuring 5 square meters and in excellent condition is unique in Greece and the Balkans. A large number of objects indicate the economic activity, eating habits and daily activities of the inhabitants and include weaving looms, ceramic pots, 53 clay figurines, 25 small figures of humans and animals, a large number of jewelry items and charred remnants of plants (wheat, lentils, pomegranates and fruit seeds) which have been preserved for 7,300 years.

http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/002294.html


and Tom...

The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean

Trustees of Dartmouth College

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/histo...age/index.html


The treasures of the Aegean
Archaeological activity on 80 islands documented in a new publication

“There is evidence that before the legendary expulsion of the islanders by the legendary iron-eating mice and before it became a place of exile and suffering that there was another world on the island.”

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/ne....asp?aid=65728

None of this contradicts what I said once. Neither bronze nor agriculture was first developed by Greece. These both first appeared in the fertile crescent.

[Starlightman]

iron-eating mice ??? Myth is not history and I have no idea why this quote is in your post.

"....the excavation site confirms the significance of sea currents for communications in the prehistoric Aegean.”


and

“There is evidence that before the legendary expulsion of the islanders by the legendary iron-eating mice and before it became a place of exile and suffering that there was another world on the island.”

from the above article...


http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/ne....asp?aid=65728

who quoting anything about Myths?

None of this contradicts what I said once. Neither bronze nor agriculture was first developed by Greece. These both first appeared in the fertile crescent.

sure Tom...sure....anything you say....

[removeduser_487563287433]

sure Tom...sure....anything you say....

We've had this conversation. You utterly failed to produce any source that suggested bronze working or agriculture appeared in Greece prior to it appearing in Sumeria and the neighbouring cultures. You also then, as now, showed basic confusion in relation to dates, claiming that artifacts discovered in Greece were older than those discovered in the Fertile Crescent, which displayed a shocking incompetence with regard to basic maths.

[Mik528]

Perhaps it's because when Iron was founded and being developed into weapons and the such, people no longer wanted bronze. I'm simplifying it too far right now but, maybe it's because nations said "Ooh, that's new I want it" and forgot bronze. Also, I believe Iron would be better for blunt weapons, bronze being more bendable would break more easily if shaped as a mace, or warhammer.

[Viking Prince]

...

iron-eating mice ??? Myth is not history and I have no idea why this quote is in your post.

[CiviC]

Was bronze against iron or in fact bronze against steel? Because swords were in fact steel not simply iron. And bronze is softer and weaker then steel.

[DAVIDE]

At the very beginning it was bronze vs wrought iron and bronze vs meteoritic iron, then with upgraded metallurgy techniques it became bronze vs steel