60 Minutes Segment on Armenian Genocide

[Armenum]

A very interesting segment done by the American 60 minutes regarding Armenian Genocide. Impartial and scholarly.

[PointOfViewGun]

There is already a thread on this. The video have already been posted on other threads.

The video doesn't go beyond your pathetic arguments Lord Mov. You should really first analyze the article that's been provided to you for your request and try to refute it first.

On a side note:
http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/l...nocideq-report

[The Noble Lord]

Interesting video, what is even more interesting is the fact that all of those former secretaries of state rallied against the bill that was to recognize Armenian Genocide. Those pathetic hypocrites, they succumbed to the Turkey's blackmail over the military bases and so-called "bridge between Europe and Asia". Truly pathetic!
Can you just imagine someone is to say that deportations of Jews during WWII were just deportations and they were not meant to exterminate Jewish race at all because even if Germans wanted it, they couldn't do it because of the war restraints (Turkey's argument), then all of those secretaries of state would be bursting with indignation and outrage.
Well, the resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide as a fact of history was passed, so those spineless cowards should lobby harder next time when they try to deny history and justice! Heh, and they call themselves "the greatest democracy in the world", it's really not a democracy at all where foreign policy is directed by the string-pullers and sinister (cowardly) lobbyists behind the scenes. And when history can be denied because of these nonentities, these cretins!

[PointOfViewGun]

Interesting video, what is even more interesting is the fact that all of those former secretaries of state rallied against the bill that was to recognize Armenian Genocide. Those pathetic hypocrites, they succumbed to the Turkey's blackmail over the military bases and so-called "bridge between Europe and Asia". Truly pathetic!
Can you just imagine someone is to say that deportations of Jews during WWII were just deportations and they were not meant to exterminate Jewish race at all because even if Germans wanted it, they couldn't do it because of the war restraints (Turkey's argument), then all of those secretaries of state would be bursting with indignation and outrage.
Well, the resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide as a fact of history was passed, so those spineless cowards should lobby harder next time when they try to deny history and justice! Heh, and they call themselves "the greatest democracy in the world", it's really not a democracy at all where foreign policy is directed by the string-pullers and sinister (cowardly) lobbyists behind the scenes. And when history can be denied because of these nonentities, these cretins!

Ahh, the obvious pathetic arguments. Always accuse and insult.

Jews did not attacked the German government or it's people provoked by foreign powers.
Jews did not kill hundreds of thousands of Germans.
Jews did not forged documents to prove the Holocaust.
Jews did not formed terrorist groups after the Holocaust to force people into accepting.
It's a great insult to even compare the two incidents.

[Caliph]

There were no concentration camps for Armenians. Comparing the ethnic cleansing of Armenians in Eastern Turkey to the holocust is sensationalist to say the least. There was severe negligence, you can even go as far as calling it criminal negligence as a lot of people died (May God rest their souls.)

Plus the video hardly proves anything.

What if Turkey apologizes to Armenia for the ethnic cleansing and their horrible handling of the logistics of moving these people during the Great war? Would that satisfy Armenians?

[Armenum]

There were no concentration camps for Armenians. Comparing the ethnic cleansing of Armenians in Eastern Turkey to the holocust is sensationalist to say the least. There was severe negligence, you can even go as far as calling it criminal negligence as a lot of people died (May God rest their souls.)

Plus the video hardly proves anything.

What if Turkey apologizes to Armenia for the ethnic cleansing and their horrible handling of the logistics of moving these people during the Great war? Would that satisfy Armenians?

Negligence? Attacking Armenian villages, letting Kurds attack, forcing Armenians to go on death marches is not negligence. But intentional massacre.

What if Turkey apologizes? Yes if Turkey at least apologized for the genocide instead of instituting a denialist policy, we would be able to move on and close this dark chapter of history once and for all.

[The Noble Lord]

It's a great insult to even compare the two incidents.

Oh yeah, why don't you tell that to still surviving victims of the Genocide, they are very old now but they still remember and they still remember very clearly where they come from, how they were pushed out, and how the members of their families perished. Why don't you tell them that and you will see what their reaction would be, and is it insult or not!
Nobody has a monopoly on Genocide and organized murder my friend, you using the same nonsensical argument like pro-Turkish lobbyists in Washington last month when they tried to block the resolution. What happened to the Jewish people from 1933-1945 was Genocide on industrial scale, and no different from Armenian Genocide or Rwandan Genocide which were done in a crude and primitive way but they were deadly and destructive every bit as the Holocaust! It's the same thing; massive, systematic and organized killings of the certain group just because of their ethnic/racial/religious affiliation. That is called Genocide and it happened in Ottoman Anatolia in 1915, in Nazi occupied Europe from 1933-1945, and in Rwanda in 1994!

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh yeah, why don't you tell that to still surviving victims of the Genocide, they are very old now but they still remember and they still remember very clearly where they come from, how they were pushed out, and how the members of their families perished. Why don't you tell them that and you will see what their reaction would be, and is it insult or not!
Nobody has a monopoly on Genocide and organized murder my friend, you using the same nonsensical argument like pro-Turkish lobbyists in Washington last month when they tried to block the resolution. What happened to the Jewish people from 1933-1945 was Genocide on industrial scale, and no different from Armenian Genocide or Rwandan Genocide which were done in a crude and primitive way but they were deadly and destructive every bit as the Holocaust! It's the same thing; massive, systematic and organized killings of the certain group just because of their ethnic/racial/religious affiliation. That is called Genocide and it happened in Ottoman Anatolia in 1915, in Nazi occupied Europe from 1933-1945, and in Rwanda in 1994!

Except;

Jews did not rebelled against the Germans.
Jews did not forge documents to prove the Holocaust.
Jews do not use pictures of dead Germans or others as if they're death Jews.
Jews do not have Germans with stories of Jews massacring Germans.
Jews did not start to collaborate with other European powers years before the Holocaust.
Jews did not boost death and population numbers to get land from Germany.
Jews never had a force of 50 thousand German Jews fighting against Germany.

Yeah I can see the similarity.

[ELITEOFKINGWARMAN8]

Ahh, the obvious pathetic arguments. Always accuse and insult.

Jews did not attacked the German government or it's people provoked by foreign powers.
Jews did not kill hundreds of thousands of Germans.
Jews did not forged documents to prove the Holocaust.
Jews did not formed terrorist groups after the Holocaust to force people into accepting.
It's a great insult to even compare the two incidents.

And 1.5 million Armeains were still murdered by the Turks, whenever you like to accept it or not. I know it's a black spot on Turkey's history, but perhaps they should have thought it out before they started to kill people and make stupid excuses for it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Were do you get this Bs from. Fact one the Armenians living in the Ottoman empire didn't like Russia, Russians or Armenians living there. Armenians were fighting together with the Ottoman troops till they were accused or trechery and were put in labor groups as far as I know very few got out of those groups. The Armenians in the Ottoman empire didn't want anything else than to get equal rights. The Dashnaks were very loyal to the Ottoman government till the deportations started and they saw what the Ottomans were doing. Andranik left their ranks because they were allied with the Turks and he thought that the government would betray the Armenians once again. You are confusing the Dashnak party of today with the one in the 1900.

Yet there are many accounts from Armenian notables where they talk about how they would do everything if Russia came in. The very fact from Bogos Nubhar Pasha that there were 50 thousand Ottoman Armenians fighting against Ottomans under Andranik is proof alone that Armenians didn't really hated Russians that much.

And 1.5 million Armeains were still murdered by the Turks, whenever you like to accept it or not. I know it's a black spot on Turkey's history, but perhaps they should have thought it out before they started to kill people and make stupid excuses for it.

Except they were not. Not even close to 1.5 million.

[maerd2003]

And 1.5 million Armeains were still murdered by the Turks

1.5 million

lies, lies, lies..



Proportions des populations en Asie Mineure statistique officielle d1914

total armenian population in all ottoman lands: 1.219.323
total population in all ottoman lands: 14.155.755.

[Koelkastmagneet]

We have enough ing threads on the Armenian genocide all ready, and TDLS has debunked most of your arguments already, Mov, I ask you, give it a rest.

[Armenum]

We have enough ing threads on the Armenian genocide all ready, and TDLS has debunked most of your arguments already, Mov, I ask you, give it a rest.

He hasn't debunked arguments, and plus I've given him primary evidence that he's ignored.

[PointOfViewGun]

He hasn't debunked arguments, and plus I've given him primary evidence that he's ignored.

Primary source? Like using pictures of dead Turks as if they were Armenians?

Even if you did give me primary source why would I take them seriously when you don't take even a single document seriously. You have not given any primary source. New York Times articles are not primary sources.

[Armenum]

This definitely needs to happen. Some sort of compromise must be struck because this tragedy is even before the holocust and arguing about it still in 2010 is beyond abnormal

All I want from Turkey is a sincere apology. But instead they choose to continue with their nationalistic agenda and brainwash and deny Genocide, which I find truly disgusting

Even if you did give me primary source why would I take them seriously when you don't take even a single document seriously. You have not given any primary source. New York Times articles are not primary sources.

Yes I have. Like this one a couple of days ago: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/pop...ffirmation=160

[Crimson Scythe]

All I want from Turkey is a sincere apology. But instead they choose to continue with their nationalistic agenda and brainwash and deny Genocide, which I find truly disgusting

Is it a nationalistic agenda and brainwashing to demand that your own people's suffering be acknowledged? We're not so different you and I, except that I DO acknowledge the suffering of the Ottoman-Armenians. The 'genocide' allegations, by their very nature, IGNORE the suffering of non-Armenians during this same period (and prior), in order to portray an image of a one-sided slaughter of innocents. Which is more disgusting: to ignore the suffering of a people? Or to ignore it AND attempt to label them as butchers, barbarians, and all manner of other vile things?

Turks will generally express sympathy for the suffering of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, because they too have experienced the same thing. Over a longer period of time and on a larger scale, no less. I just don't see Armenians (with some exceptions) as being willing to do the same.

Yes I have. Like this one a couple of days ago: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/pop...ffirmation=160

Let's analyze your telegram, shall we?

First, it recognizes that it was the "Kurd and Turkish population of Armenia ()" that was responsible for the atrocities, but presents no evidence to back up the claim of "connivances and assistance of Ottoman authorities" in such incidents. This is therefore more likely an opinion and an accusation, rather than proof of genocidal intent.

Second, this telegram does not mention the fact that the Armenian rebellion in the Van province started well before April of 1915. Take the battle at Kotur, in which over 400 Ottoman troops, regular and irregular, were made casualties in December (17-19) of 1914. Or how Armenian troops first started deserting in August of 1914, before the war even began. Or how Armenian guerrilla attacks near the city of Van began in March of 1914:

The Armenians have prepared a general revolt that will aid the upcoming Russian attack from Abaak and Saray and the enemy occupation of Van. They are only waiting until the roads open [from the winter snows]. Until then, they at first engaged only in occasional and isolated incidents, fearing that our position would be completely improved if the sufficient forces for which we have waited and hoped should arrive. [Seeing the forces did not arrive] they began to assault the Muslim villages that were near the villages where the Armenians had gathered together. In the Irelmir Kariye near Van they attacked gendarmes and tax collectors. Unable to refrain until the time of the general rebellion, their actions showed their intentions. Although the Muslim people defended themselves and detachments sent from Van scattered the rebels, these actions will repeat in even greater number in the province center and elsewhere in the province. I see the signs of these coming events. Reports from the detachment commanders at Kotur [!] indicate that the Russians will begin to advance into the Kotur Valley. After they have occupied the important points in the Kotur Pass, they will mount an assault on Saray. When that occurs there is no doubt that the Armenians will revolt on every side.

This is a communication from Cevdet bey himself to the Third Army Command from March 25,1915 (quoted from Justin McCarthy's The Armenian Rebellion at Van, pp. 196-197).

Even on April 20th, the day that the supposed Ottoman assault on Van's Armenian population began, there are reports of Armenian guerrillas attacking security stations and houses near the Armenian Quarter, and the Baskale-Havaso-Mrmurtal-Resat telegraph line being cut (The Armenian Rebellion at Van, p.200). By April 21st, Cevdet receives reports that Ottoman reinforcements can't reach the city as all roads except the Van-Gevas road had been closed down by Armenian guerrillas. As reinforcements from the Van Mobile Gendarme Division pushed onto the city, the guerrillas pushed into it, which is when the Stalingrad-like fighting between the Muslim and Armenian Quarters begins.

Thirdly, the telegram clearly states that the Armenian Quarter of Van is besieged by KURDS, not Ottoman troops. Why refer to them thus except to distinguish between Kurdish ex-Hamidiye irregulars and Ottoman regulars (and Ottoman-led irregulars)? The Hamidiye corps was disbanded at the beginning of the war for being unreliable and ill-disciplined. Ottoman troops actually fought skirmishes against Kurdish bandits who had been Hamidiye cavalrymen, but were essentially unemployed by early 1915.

Finally, the real point of this telegram is to declare the Allies' OPINION that the Ottomans were directly responsible for the lawlessness of the region. The Allied tribunals disproved this accusation after the war, recognizing that the Ottomans couldn't even manipulate the violence, let alone stop it.

This document is a primary source, coming as it does from the period in question, but that isn't enough to make it a GOOD primary source. A good historian will recognize that. A politician or a lobbyist, however, will wield history clumsily, doing a disservice to himself and his cause.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yes I have. Like this one a couple of days ago: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/pop...ffirmation=160

Read what Crimson said and then look what a "proof" means in a dictionary.

[Erebus Pasha]

And there was no massive, systematic, state-sponsored killings ordered by the Ottoman government either.

[Il-Principe]

A very interesting segment done by the American 60 minutes regarding Armenian Genocide. Impartial and scholarly.

Good find. +rep

[Lonck]

the fact that you don't even acknowledge that it was murder really shows your bias. It may have not been a genocide but it was a messed up thing to do, a murderous act. Although the Turkish government should not apologize as they weren't even around back then but they should at least acknowledge the dead.