I'm still under the impression that prayer/magic doesn't work

[Helm]

I don't feel I can really do this religion thing properly because of it. Surely if the gods could directly intervene in such a way wouldn't that limit the freewill we're supposed to have? And when we're talking about anything that supposedly happens in the real world surely that's the kind of thing we can test with science?

[Time Commander Bob]

Religion doesn't require prayer or miracles, just that prayer and miracles are often associated with many religions. Saying "religion" is too vague for any proper analysis to be made, more specific examples are required. If the existence of the universe is attributed to any particular deity then the capacities that humans have and their surroundings certainly limit them in some way, so the act of intentional creation by a god is certainly means that some limits have already been placed on human free will.

[Helm]

The main problem I have is that I don't believe in luck, at least not the kind you can't make for yourself. It's probably not really a problem but I can't really fully authenticate my Pagan faith.

[basics]

" The main problem I have is that I don't believe in luck, at least not the kind you can't make for yourself. It's probably not really a problem but I can't really fully authenticate my Pagan faith."

Helm,

For quite some time now my daughter's oldest friend, since day one at primary school, has been losing a lot of weight. My lass kept telling her mother of how she wouldn't eat at lunchtime or for that matter any time she stayed over at our house and indeed she also reported it to her form master.

Now she has been taken in to a place that specialises in anorexia, her body mass at 13, the level for anorexia being 17.5. I don't have to tell you that I prayed as I've never prayed before indeed spent what seemed like hours in my sleep crying to God that this little girl, and at sixteen she is a little girl, be given back her appetite, that He would alter what it was going on in her head that made her the way she was.

I remember asking her mother who as a family are heavily into the local church of Scotland, him a deacon, why they don't organise laying on of hands by the elders praying over her. The suggestion was met with a stare of incredulity. " We don't do that in our church." Why not, I said, it is laid down that we are to do these things and without delay the subject was changed quickly, another friend of the mother getting up and walking out of the room.

However since the lass has gone into this place her texts and phone calls to my daughter began with the expression that she has indeed started eating all put before her again. Now that's a full week in and a week since my prayers related above. To everyone else of course it is only one small step forward, including the expert help she is now receiving, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that God has intervened in her life.

I'm not a guy given over to much emotion yet in this case what I was doing was outside what is normal for me, and believe me my prayers in my sleep on that particular occasion was way beyond anything that I thought I was capable of. I simply had no control of myself, even in my sleep, as I begged for that girl. Her mother was on the phone last night, having just come back from Dundee where the girl now is, and she was delighted and relieved that she had seen her eating again.

My point in telling or sharing this is that I have always stressed that Christians, born again ones, live by the power of God and prayer received and acted on is that power in action. You know its a funny thing that the girl also has deformed legs and I remember saying to God that her appetite is the important thing for the moment, her legs can come later. That's the closeness that one gets to God and how much He appreciates it.

So, does prayer work? Of course it does and has to if any relationship with God is to work. It's a pity that many never take advantage of it.

[Helm]

" The main problem I have is that I don't believe in luck, at least not the kind you can't make for yourself. It's probably not really a problem but I can't really fully authenticate my Pagan faith."

Helm,

For quite some time now my daughter's oldest friend, since day one at primary school, has been losing a lot of weight. My lass kept telling her mother of how she wouldn't eat at lunchtime or for that matter any time she stayed over at our house and indeed she also reported it to her form master.

Now she has been taken in to a place that specialises in anorexia, her body mass at 13, the level for anorexia being 17.5. I don't have to tell you that I prayed as I've never prayed before indeed spent what seemed like hours in my sleep crying to God that this little girl, and at sixteen she is a little girl, be given back her appetite, that He would alter what it was going on in her head that made her the way she was.

I remember asking her mother who as a family are heavily into the local church of Scotland, him a deacon, why they don't organise laying on of hands by the elders praying over her. The suggestion was met with a stare of incredulity. " We don't do that in our church." Why not, I said, it is laid down that we are to do these things and without delay the subject was changed quickly, another friend of the mother getting up and walking out of the room.

However since the lass has gone into this place her texts and phone calls to my daughter began with the expression that she has indeed started eating all put before her again. Now that's a full week in and a week since my prayers related above. To everyone else of course it is only one small step forward, including the expert help she is now receiving, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that God has intervened in her life.

I'm not a guy given over to much emotion yet in this case what I was doing was outside what is normal for me, and believe me my prayers in my sleep on that particular occasion was way beyond anything that I thought I was capable of. I simply had no control of myself, even in my sleep, as I begged for that girl. Her mother was on the phone last night, having just come back from Dundee where the girl now is, and she was delighted and relieved that she had seen her eating again.

Seeing as I now believe in gods of some description I'm open to the idea that you may have challenged some kind of psychologically boosting energy to her by praying with her as the focuss point. It's the kind of thing it would be possible to scientifically test for so I would have to hold judgement on it. I'd invest more down to Earth practical help where possible I still go by the "Two hands at work accomplish more than a thousand hands at prayer" philosophy.

My point in telling or sharing this is that I have always stressed that Christians, born again ones, live by the power of God and prayer received and acted on is that power in action. You know its a funny thing that the girl also has deformed legs and I remember saying to God that her appetite is the important thing for the moment, her legs can come later. That's the closeness that one gets to God and how much He appreciates it.

I don't think anyone has ever been healed from physical deformity or amputation through prayer, you will be chanelling psychological strength at most imo.

So, does prayer work? Of course it does and has to if any relationship with God is to work. It's a pity that many never take advantage of it.

It's probably worth a go I suppose, I'll just have to look into how the Pagans do/did it to make this religion of mine fully authentic. I'd say it's probably better to have lots of individual gods each specialising in a different aspect of life to focuss your prayer power on than your all in one general God.

[basics]

" I don't think anyone has ever been healed from physical deformity or amputation through prayer, you will be chanelling psychological strength at most imo."

Helm,

A long time ago now, my wife and I went to a meeting in Inverness and before the actual service started those with infirmities were asked to raise their hands. Right in front of us were the hands of a person stricken with arthritis and we watched as these fingers on the hands were straightened and flexible as prayers were said for all who had raised their hands.

Mark you we were almost frightened out of our wits as someone let out the wierdest shriek from behind us, this being the expulsion of an evil spirit into the bargain. Was it put on? Well if anyone human that is could replicate that noise again he or she would be in line for an oscar. But hey, that's the Christian life so we shouldn't be surprised when we see God at work.

[Fiyenyaa]

A long time ago now, my wife and I went to a meeting in Inverness and before the actual service started those with infirmities were asked to raise their hands. Right in front of us were the hands of a person stricken with arthritis and we watched as these fingers on the hands were straightened and flexible as prayers were said for all who had raised their hands.

Mark you we were almost frightened out of our wits as someone let out the wierdest shriek from behind us, this being the expulsion of an evil spirit into the bargain. Was it put on? Well if anyone human that is could replicate that noise again he or she would be in line for an oscar. But hey, that's the Christian life so we shouldn't be surprised when we see God at work.

Assuming this actually happened: you saw someone who said they had arthritus, then you did a bit of a group magic trick, then they could move their fingers. You can't see anything wrong with this story?
Ever seen a quadruple amputee get completely healed and start walking around?

[Helm]

" I don't think anyone has ever been healed from physical deformity or amputation through prayer, you will be chanelling psychological strength at most imo."

Helm,

A long time ago now, my wife and I went to a meeting in Inverness and before the actual service started those with infirmities were asked to raise their hands. Right in front of us were the hands of a person stricken with arthritis and we watched as these fingers on the hands were straightened and flexible as prayers were said for all who had raised their hands.

Mark you we were almost frightened out of our wits as someone let out the wierdest shriek from behind us, this being the expulsion of an evil spirit into the bargain. Was it put on? Well if anyone human that is could replicate that noise again he or she would be in line for an oscar. But hey, that's the Christian life so we shouldn't be surprised when we see God at work.

It would still work if you're chanelling some kind of general uplifting metaphysical energy, much of religion is really just a cultural abstraction as a means to focuss into this energy as far as Neo-Paganism is concerned. Though I think there's still a very good chance it's just a placebo effect but it's good to keep a fairly open mind.

Dont you think thats the wrong way to go about it? I mean instead of asking for strength and then thanking god. Why not just give yourself the motivation and strength and then feel good about yourself after knowing you acheived your goal 100% on your own.

It dilutes the effort you put it and takes away your credit and self worth and it promotes a false confidence. Like i hear alot of people say they couldnt of done it without god. Actors at the oscars say it alot, It's almost saying "im not really a good actor, God helped me".

You shouldnt have to think god is on your side to acheive your goals, It's a false state of mind. People should just have confidence in themselfs and not need anyone to help them or guide them. I think god/prayer is just a temporary buffer if it was taken away they would crumble Like an alcoholic without beer.

If you think of the gods as a source of metaphysical power to draw upon in times of need it's probably an easier way of giving yourself the boost you need even if it doesn't actually work for real. Though of course you really do need to believe that it does work for real, no evidence that it doesn't so it might.

[Tacitursa]

If they think their God is on their side that may give them a psychological boost giving them more confidence and they may have passed the interview when they otherwise wouldn't. So prayer can work but you really have to believe in it.

Dont you think thats the wrong way to go about it? I mean instead of asking for strength and then thanking god. Why not just give yourself the motivation and strength and then feel good about yourself after knowing you acheived your goal 100% on your own.

It dilutes the effort you put it and takes away your credit and self worth and it promotes a false confidence. Like i hear alot of people say they couldnt of done it without god. Actors at the oscars say it alot, It's almost saying "im not really a good actor, God helped me".

You shouldnt have to think god is on your side to acheive your goals, It's a false state of mind. People should just have confidence in themselfs and not need anyone to help them or guide them. I think god/prayer is just a temporary buffer if it was taken away they would crumble Like an alcoholic without beer.

[Fiyenyaa]

If you are so set on believing in gods, yet you recognise that prayer and magic are unproven and unlikely, how about you go with some kind of belief system without an interventionist god? Deism?

[Helm]

If you are so set on believing in gods, yet you recognise that prayer and magic are unproven and unlikely, how about you go with some kind of belief system without an interventionist god? Deism?

What I believe really is Panendeism

"belief in a God who is both panentheistic and deistic, e.g. a God who contains all of the universe, but who nevertheless transcends or has some existence separate from the universe, but also who does not actively intervene in the universe and can only be determined from reason"

Though I have in fact made it into Panenpolydesim and associated it with Paganism. The gods do interact with us but only in the sense that they are everything.

[Pontifex Maximus]

This explains it all.

In three groups of individuals receiving bypass surgery, one was prayed for and knew about it, one was prayed for and did not know about it, and one was not prayed for. The group that knew people were praying for them was the only group to see any positive effects from the prayers, but ended up having more complications than any other group which leads us to believe that the effects of prayers are purely psychological, as the results from the control group and the group that was unknowingly prayed for did not very in results. The group that knew they were being prayed for possibly had "stage fright" because they felt obligated improve faster, but also may have thought that they were being prayed for because their situation was dire.

So, no, prayer does not work in the "god will make everything ok" sense, but as a sugar pill of sorts, a placebo. (at best)

[Helm]

So, no, prayer does not work in the "god will make everything ok" sense, but as a sugar pill of sorts, a placebo. (at best)

That's what I think but I doubt it will work when you actually think that. So there's not really much point in me carrying out a blood sacrifice or whatever at an altar of the gods, which is a pain. Mind you I heard somewhere that the Vikings viewed worshipping the gods as a sign of weakness so it perhaps I can get away with this flaw in my faith.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

This explains it all.

In three groups of individuals receiving bypass surgery, one was prayed for and knew about it, one was prayed for and did not know about it, and one was not prayed for. The group that knew people were praying for them was the only group to see any positive effects from the prayers, but ended up having more complications than any other group which leads us to believe that the effects of prayers are purely psychological, as the results from the control group and the group that was unknowingly prayed for did not very in results. The group that knew they were being prayed for possibly had "stage fright" because they felt obligated improve faster, but also may have thought that they were being prayed for because their situation was dire.

So, no, prayer does not work in the "god will make everything ok" sense, but as a sugar pill of sorts, a placebo. (at best)

This study is so retarded. Asking random strangers to pray for a group of people they don't know? That's asking a random hobo off the street to ask your parents for some cash to give you. Of course your parents will not give you cash in that manner... Plus how can you accurately measure the spiritual strength of the person and how well they pray?

If you wanted to do a real study, grab a group of people who actually believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Then grab another group of people that don't believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Finally, grab a control group who doesn't pray at all and just leave them be. Tally up the results and then publish the study...

I can't believe this was from Harvard.

[Caliph]

This study is so retarded. Asking random strangers to pray for a group of people they don't know? That's asking a random hobo off the street to ask your parents for some cash to give you. Of course your parents will not give you cash in that manner... Plus how can you accurately measure the spiritual strength of the person and how well they pray?

If you wanted to do a real study, grab a group of people who actually believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Then grab another group of people that don't believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Finally, grab a control group who doesn't pray at all and just leave them be. Tally up the results and then publish the study...

I can't believe this was from Harvard.

The results will still be irrelevant. God doesn't grant wishes if you do it right. God decides who to grant, what to grant and when to grant; it really isn't up to us.

[Phier]

This study is so retarded. Asking random strangers to pray for a group of people they don't know? That's asking a random hobo off the street to ask your parents for some cash to give you. Of course your parents will not give you cash in that manner... Plus how can you accurately measure the spiritual strength of the person and how well they pray?

If you wanted to do a real study, grab a group of people who actually believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Then grab another group of people that don't believe in prayer and ask them to pray. Finally, grab a control group who doesn't pray at all and just leave them be. Tally up the results and then publish the study...

I can't believe this was from Harvard.

From what I recall, the people they 'grabbed' were from various churches, not random hobos.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

From what I recall, the people they 'grabbed' were from various churches, not random hobos.

What are you saying, going to church makes you a professional prayer? If so, then hobos are professional money beggers and the analogy still remains valid.

[Squiggle]

I don't feel I can really do this religion thing properly because of it. Surely if the gods could directly intervene in such a way wouldn't that limit the freewill we're supposed to have? And when we're talking about anything that supposedly happens in the real world surely that's the kind of thing we can test with science?

Why are you immediately assuming that to be religious one has to believe in a god(s) that will intervene at your leisure? AFAIK Christianity views prayer as a source of strength, not asking God to act on your behalf. Don't know of any religions that differ in that regard, either.

edit: you know its funny, cause I called helm a "fake atheist" like a week before he became a pagan, lulz. I know all.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't feel I can really do this religion thing properly because of it. Surely if the gods could directly intervene in such a way wouldn't that limit the freewill we're supposed to have? And when we're talking about anything that supposedly happens in the real world surely that's the kind of thing we can test with science?

Praying doesn't grant your wishes. It only helps for afterlife. So you can pray as hard as you can for anything and God won't make it happen just because you prayed hard. You need to be a prophet to have that.

[Tacitursa]

Christianity views prayer as a source of strength

Most christian prayers ive witnessed in person almost always involve asking god for something or thanking him for something both of which give the impression he does intervene.

"Dear god please give me strength for this interview" they pass the interview and then "Thank you god for your strength". So they think he helped and then thank him for helping and at the same time think he doesnt intervene?